If a heavy ToT (I said it again, it’s all according rumors heard in France) India would have a much easy task to adapt another engines.

that would be cool!!

But as I said, old tech for M-53, why not, but still kick ass :p

True, but with better engines, it kick bigger ass 😀

Kind Regards,
USS.

Glitter,

It might not be too old or in the grave just yet, but heck in 2040, It will be the whole mig-21 saga all over again.. With old tech engines, limited space for upgrades, yada yada yada..

If you are going to spend 9 billion dollars, you might as well factor in the future as well.. why this short term approach..

Agreed, however, if the IAF HAS to go for an intemediate procurement of MRCA then I would prefer the MiG29 or a modified Mirage. Both would be cheaper than this expensive Mirage 2000-5 a/c, esp. the MiG29. In a few years time they can always make the IAF more cutting edge by introducing PakFa/JSF type of a/c. Afterall thier goal calls for 55 sqds.

For few electronics system, how much different mechanical ones ?

Glitter, sure there will be some mechanical differences between that a/c types if the MiG29 is chosen, but these differnces will probly be a lot less than the differences caused by the Mirage 2000; the only thing the Mirage will have commonality with (esp. if it is not modified to accomodate the Bars, OLSM, tarang etc), will be the already existent mirages (60 a/c). OTOH, the MiG29 would provide commonality with IAF Mig29s, IN MIG29s and the Su 30MKIs, Lcas, Bisons etc at least to a greater degree vis a vis the Mirage 2000.

“French spares” would be Made in India spares in the case of the mirages

same with the MiG 29s, probly making them even cheaper! Where is the advantage for the Mirage?

So, take a look at Dassault history, from vautour to RAfale.
then your problem is the difficulty to fit a russian engines into a french airframe.
COuld you show me example of french or american engines fitted into russian airframes with the help of Mig or sukhoi ?

I agree about french engines not finding a way in russian planes but then again, they are kind of underpowered so why would anyone want to fit them into russian planes. No need so no such deed. OTOH apart from engines russians have not caused much problems while incorporating french/israeli stuff on SU 30 for india.

As an example, check the history of the Mirage III.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avmir3.html

Almost every user got a costumised version.

Agreed Spectral, but I’m not surprised that they do this for the Mirage III, which is no competition to the Rafale, same cannot be said of mirage 2000. Remember while nobody is going to opt for a Mirage III as against the Rafale, customers (esp. big ones like India) may choose the Mirage 2000 as opposed to Rafale. Mirage 2000 and Mirage III are totally different class a/c, while rafale and mirage 2000 are more comparable.

Kind Regards,
USS.

The RD-33 wouldn’t translate into a real upgrade for that cost. As you said, I don’t think a aL 31 coult fit into that arframe.

How about the RD 43, the ones they planned to use on the SMT (10000kg of AB Thrust), perhaps these may work, no? May be Aerospacetech can shed some light on this.

India is said to built the mirage/Mig would Dassault/Mig won the 126 aircraft deal.

I can’t be sure what it is you are saying here? I don’t think either of the planes are built in India, although overhaul facilities do exist.

I’m not sure it’s easer to know whcih is cheaper or not.
One think is sure, the mirage maintenance is still lower and with a country with a very high hour/year fly, it means something.

Mirage maintenance is lower, but how much real difference is it going to make when you consider that buying MiG 29s will mean greater commonality with other a/c type (MiG 29k of IN, SU 30MKI, LCA?). Also, french spares are supposedly more expensive than russian ones. And again what real maintenance bother is it going to be when India produces the a/c, has complete manufacturing base set up?

Your lack of knwoledge about Dassault is obvious 😀

This I don’t deny, I’m no expert on dassault, but if you are more knowledgeable, please enlighten us. Obviously you have quoted me out of context – my comment was only in reply to INdian1973’s comment about the French not being very flexible in modifying their mirages (post # 19). So if you think the French/Dassault is v.flexible, please take it up with him. Obviously (from the experience with the SU30MKI) the Russians don’t have too many hangups in customizing a/c.

But why would they want to do that? Airframe-wise Mirage 2000 does not offer anything truly interesting, it is the avionics of M2K dash 5 that made the difference. If it is really Bras-29 what they are after, then it is a heck lot easier to buy a complete Russian design than to stuff Russian engines, radars and other systems into the Mirage fuselage.

Flex,

I would agree with your assessment and I did post something to the effect – just go with the MiG29. However, one plus that the IAF may get by going with the french is their weapons esp. the standoff weapons. This might not be possible if the whole deal went to the Russians.

Kind regards,

It was on a Mirage F1 IIRC, which is quite a different aircraft from a M2K 😉

Oh, so the problem is more than just political as Indian1973 had suggested. Technically too it would not be possible to fit an RD 33/43 or AL 31 on the Mirage 2000? Too bad – so much for my fantasy, custom M2000MKI 🙁 Screw it – just go with the MiG29 M/m2 – cheaper, better in A2A, and can be further worked on for better A2G role! 😡 And yeah, the Russians have no problems in customizing the a/c as per customer needs.

Peace,
USS.

Indian1973, the modifications you suggest would end up making the M2K another Su-30MKI minus the agility; we all know how much agile the Super Hornet is compared to standard Hornets.

Like I had suggested a couple of months ago; the only thing I would reccommend doing to the M2K are:

1) integrate Bars-29 instead of French radars. RBE2 with all the bells and whistles is still vaporware.
2) OLS-30M under the nose or fuselage, rather than above the nose as it is on the Su-27 family.
3) higher thrust engines.

Doing anything more would be not only costly and unfeasible, but also mean flogging too much out of a dated airframe; akin to making a Subpar Mirage 2K out of a standard Mirage 2K 😀

All those experiments of making bomb trucks out of F-16s and F-18s is killing their multi-role use.

Yeah I would agree, only problem is what higher thrust engine could you fit in there?

USS.

I don’t want to hijack this thread, but have a couple of alternative suggestions:

Can the Mirage be outfitted with the Bars 29 or EL 2052 when ready (2-3 years)? Also, can it be that the israeli/indian ecm suite (just as in mki) tarang be used for the Mirage 2000? heck, why not just go for the original mirage 2000h without radar and ecm from the french (so as to reduce cost even further) and then buff it up with Bars 29/El 2052 and tarang/israeli ecm?

Advantages of using Bars29:

1) Use it for MiG29 as well.
2) Probably would allow use of variety of russian/french/israeli/indian weapons (R77, Meteor, R37?, scalp eg, etc etc) This would be totally awesome 😮 :diablo:
3)Increase commonality between the 4 main a/c that IAF plans to use (Su 30MKI, MiG29 – after upgrade, Mirage 2000, LCA) all of them would share similar ecm and radar (except LCA).
4) Also I’m thinking this would reduce the a/c cost as compared to the exhorbitant M2000-5.

Advantages of using ED 2052:

1) Could be used for MiG29 as well thereby again reducing different types of radars in inventory.
2) Great radar + tech.

just some dreaming I s’pose, but everyone has a right to indulge a bit, what?

Kind Regards,
USS.