No TVC on M2. The cobra was originally done with a vanilla MiG-29, by Valeri Menirski. Dunno when this was first done in public?

Many thanks, that is very useful. Says a lot about the MiG29s manouverability… can other a/c without tvc do the same such as SU 30/27, F15/16/18, Mirage 2000/EF2000/Rafale?

Kind Regards,
USS.

at some point say 2015 I expect India to seek franco-british help in moving to the next stage of the carrier game … a pair of strong 60KT brothers to the 39KT ADS.

that would be awesome!! 😮 would they be nuclear powered?

Kind Regards,
USS.

can anyone tell me if the following has tvc:

MiG 29k
MiG 29m/m2

I could have sworn I have seen a picture of the latter with tvc engines posted on this forum. I can’t seem to find it anywhere now.

Regards,
USS.

USS, the last Ark Royal to have arrestor wires was pensioned of in 1978. The current ship to bear this name is based on the Invincible. These ships were originally ASW Sea King helo vessels. The US Marines showed that basing Harriers (AV-8A’s) on smaller vessels such as their assualt ships was possible. The RN followed suit.
The angled flight deck was a response to the older flush or straight deck carriers which provided only one lane for taking off and landing. If a pilot missed the wires, then hed most likley hit parked A/C or hit the superstructure of the ship. Look at old WWII footage to see Hellcats and Corsairs coming in for a bad landing and hitting other planes or the supersructure. the split in two or burst into flames…ouch!
The angled flight deck effectively split the carrier deck into two areas. The non angled bit could house parked planes, accommodate deck edge lifts and be used to lauanch craft from the front of the ship. The angled deck area could also launch aircraft. More importantly perhaps, as the landing strip was angled so many degrees AWAY from the superstructure and other A/C. A plane could thus land with much less danger of hitting anything if the pilot missed the arrestor wires altogether.

Thanks for the explanation buffpuff, most educational. I see your point about the angled deck being more safe. But I still have more questions (just plain inquisitive i s’pose 😀 ) :

I believe the Viraat was upgraded to have an angled deck. So why not the MiG29k on the Viraat, i don’t know if it has an exactly stobar kind of set up -arrestor wires and all but how difficult would this be on the Viraat?

And then again, if the Viraat is too old for this type of reworking, why not modify the invincible and get her to have an angled deck?

I guess the question i’m wrestling with is: are the Viraat/Invincible unable to operate any other plane apart from the Harrier (or perhaps the JSF?) thanks largely to the latter’s Vectored thrust engines? And hey, talking about TVC, isn’t the MiG 29k supposed to get that type of engine?

Regards,
USS

“Agreed that 3 carriers in service might mean 1 in refit and 2 operational. But that is a pretty good scenario for the next few years, IN would be quite happy. Again, I agree that Indian defence procurement progrms seem to take forever, but I choose to be optimistic…”

Yes, I think you are being very optimistic on this point. India is a long way from having 2 fully operational ships whilst one sits in port for refit…like 15 years or so.

In 3-5 years the ex-Ghorshkov sets sail hopefully….at which point you have two.

I don’t see IOC for the new boat until atleast 2010, maybe a little later. As soon as it makes it’s maiden ops voyage, the Viraat comes home for a rest….and I seriously doubt that it ever sails as a warship again. Why? By then you’ve got a 50 year old ship and 30 year old aircraft costing a bundle a operate while you’re two newer vessels are: A) Newer and have already cost a lot to get to sea and therefore will get the majority of funding. B) They are operating similar air wings making training and operations easier. C) The idea of sending this ship back to sea with dissimilar aircraft and it’s ever growing cost of operations will make it economically necessary to retire it, it’s aircraft, and save the money for other naval aviation projects which will be more effective.

Hey, this is an “outside looking in” perspective based on economic realities. I don’t have any emotional ties to this, thus I make my statements. I have to conclude that any serious naval planning would conclude the same….and it really is for the better of the force. What good is a money, time, and resource bleeding item like the Viraat/Sea Harrier when your navy is moving forward with newer and better equipment? What real good will come from milking an extra cruise from this aging combo when the funding can better be spent on the next generation or on simple improvements to your existing force of two carriers which are already dramatically more capable?

Right, Wanshan and joeinTexas, i agree about your misgivings with a new Invincible for the IN. especially if it means diversion of funds from the ADS program. I also agree that they should think long term, but I don’t think they can afford to ignore short term scenario.

So as a short term solution, i would still prefer they go for the Invincible because, then they can retire the Viraat and still have at least 2 a/c carriers until ADS 1 comes along, thereafter they can have 3. i don’t think IN is too happy with having just one carrier around (gorshkov after viraat retires). i know overall this a more expensive solution, but you gotta pay the piper one way or the other. lack of planning/purchases in the last decade means extra spending now!

An aside, here is a questoin i’m intrigued by:

1) Can the MiG29ks operate from Invincible? Since they already are being tested on a STOBAR setup on the Kuznetsov, why not the Invincible (of course with few modifications)?

2) Can they operate from Viraat? Since it is a little bigger than the Invincible?

Is this technically practical? Any nitty gritties will be appreciated by this newbie:)

kind regards,
USS>

Would it benefit from the ski ramp as used by Sea Harriers? Is it VSTOL?
Somehow I doubt it…;) – Nermal

No, it (you are referring to the MiG29K right?) is not V/STOL, but I have seen it described as capable of STOL. Also, it seems that the harrier’s capacity for Vertical take off is rarely used in operations as it consumes a lot of gas. I suppose this is what necessitates the ski jump apparatus. Point is can’t the MiG 29 avail itself of this same apparatus? Apparently, it is undergoing trials on the Kuznetsov using STOBAR apparatus (isn’t Viraat the same?)

USS

Well, consider that the Invincible class ships are OLDER (Invincible commisioned 1980, Illustrious in 1982, Ark Royal in 1985) already than the Gorshkov (commissioned in 1987). Same age group as IN Kashin destroyers. Also while Gorshkov was non-operation from 1993 onwards and is now getting a major refurbishing, the Invincible class ships have been operational all the time and probably wouldn’t get a similar refurbishment.
…

As pointed out before, age certainly does not seem to stop the IN from operating ships. The logic of my proposal is – why not have one really old ship (viraat), one relatively old ship (Invincible) for near-shore blue water ops, while the Gorshkov and ADS can project effective force in the greater IOR.

If and when the first ADS enters service in 2012, the Invincile will be 32 and Ark Royal 27 years old. By 2020 these ships will be between 35 and 40 years old and due replacement. Looking at Hermes/Viraat, you might still get another 10-15 years out of them if you had to, but still their usefulness for power projection would remain limited. At best I would use them – with Gorshkov – as stop gap while building up the number of larger, new ADS to the desired minimum level of 3. As more ADS become available, they could be relegated to pure ASW or heliborne assault roles.

My point exactly, the Invincible should not be considered a great long term investment, but i can see her do a decent job near shore at least for another 15 years or so.

However, in addition to the vessel age issue (and, in relation to that, the age of ship technology and wear), there is the issue of manning and escorting to consider. Manning 5 rather than 3 carriers in itself puts a drain on manpower resources. Furthermore, more carriers means more aircraft, i.e. more pilots and maintenance crews. Also, carriers need escorts and so more carriers need more escorts, which in turn translates to even greater manpower needs. Not only do all these folks need to be recruited and trained, they also need to be fed, clothed and paid for the duration. Then add the cost of operating 5 rather than 3 carrier groups (fuel, stores etc, all logistics and maintenance involved). We’re talking big big buck here.

Manpower should be one of india’s greatest strengths (there a whole bunch of decently qualified youngsters looking for jobs in India). India probbly churns out more engineers than any other country, many of these guys are often frustrated because of unemployment. grads from other fields are even more hard pressed to find jobs. india has a huge population, but it’s manpower age population forms a high content of this large number. In terms of being able to handle more carrier groups, pilots, maintenance crews etc I don’t see any country better suited for the job. Yes, it will cost more but I have always felt that with its increasingly booming economy, India underspends on Defence matters in a big way.

Sure, I suppose India could have three carriers officially in possession in three years if everything goes right….in various states of construction, disrepair and operation. But, that’s not the same as three combat ready in-service vessels which can be counted on for use. The ex-Gorshkov might be under trial by then, I don’t know. The Viraat likely will be operating at it’s limited pace unless something mechanical or structural has threatened it. And, the new carrier may be taking shape in the dockyard, but. Considering the speed at which so many Indian programs run, who can really say when their latest boat will be finished..?

Agreed that 3 carriers in service might mean 1 in refit and 2 operational. But that is a pretty good scenario for the next few years, IN would be quite happy. Again, I agree that Indian defence procurement progrms seem to take forever, but I choose to be optimistic. Who knows, they may actually get the ADS rolling by 2012-2015.

As regards wasting resources on refitting the Viraat for Mig 29K ops since it is already too old, perhaps they can refit the relatively newer Invincible for the same? The Mig 29K does not seem to be any bigger than the Harrier in size, esp. with folding wings. So if the Invincible could carry a few of these, it could surely cause plenty of problems for potential threats in India’s neighborhood.

So, it is not just a matter of “can we get some more flat topped hulls” …

Sure, nothing good is ever easy. 😉 But, if there is not a technical obstacle which makes Invincible operations for the IN impractical, i feel the IN should definitely go for it.

Just my humble opinion.