uss noviceHere is a not so educated view (perhaps fantasy):
I would personally like to see India with 5 a/c carriers. In that context the Invincible, could be v.useful. If India could operate about 14-15 MiG29ks (or greater number of NLCA in the near future) from the Viraat (is this practically possible?). Use the Harriers (which are being upgraded) on the Invincible (this way v.little modifications need be done to the Invincible, although perhaps big mods would be required for the Viraat).
I guess it all depends on whether or not the Viraat could carry the newly developed MiG29ks in decent numbers (at least a sqd). Add to this the Vikramaditya (ex gorshkov) and in due time the ADS and you have a pretty decent carrier force and long ranged sea arm.
Just a fantasy, dissect it as you will.
Regards,
USS>
uss noviceThe real question is what if the Tejas never shows up? what then for India? I’d see that to be a reason for India to upgrade and keep flying the “flying coffins”. Maybe a western engine and Israeli avionics? Can anyone think of a a plane they could buy as replacement for the MiG-21s if the Tejas doesn’t show up?
I don’t see why the Tejas won’t show up, it seems to be well on its way. Perhaps a little later, but the later it is i’m sure the better it’ll be 🙂 Such things take time, India lost the advantage of probly being the first developing country to build its own plane (marut) and there were delays because of the lost experience (among other reasons), however, i’m sure the LCA will be 1st class. After all the lca is no normal 4th gen plane, it has many features that are v.unique and advanced. Such a plane can take time, although admittedly it has been unnecessarily delayed. But then again, Indians are known to be patient.
And if it does by chance get way delayed, they will probly keep getting mirages 🙂
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceEither way, I really don’t think India should invest in any further upgrade of the flying coffin. India should really start to put this type out of service, a bit by bit every year, at least until they will start making the Tejas, or get any other modern fighter plane.
I would agree, but the rate at which the bureaulicians (bureaucrats + politicialns) make decisions, who knows when the iAF will get the 126 odd mrca. 😡 If it is going to be 2009-10, they may as well get something to replace the sqds that are expected to be disbanded till that time – i would take a Mig21 bison to nothing. Are the 12 odd qatari mirages going to make enough difference.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceHere is a question for the experts:
Since there has been some speculation re the EW platform aboard the V’aditya (even the E2C hawkeye was proposed), I was wondering if the following could be a solution:
DO 228s with EL 2022 radar (http://www.iai.co.il/site/en/iai.asp?pi=26334&doc_id=26506) aboard the Vikramaditya.
Some advantages that I can think of:
Greater range/max altitude of DO 228 than Ka 31 (guesswork here)
Cheaper than E2 Hawkeye (if it can be fitted)
Smaller than Hawkeye (so perhaps a better chance to accomodate on ship)
My big concern is – can the EL 2022 be used as an effective AEW platform (i believe an A to A option is offered – how good it really is cannot be found on the site given)
Regards,
USS.
uss novicemy pick.. probably surprising to a few..
and it is
the MiG-29M2!!!
why: It’s cheaper and can be produced faster, Dassault products, while better quality in general, take forever to build. If you want something interrim, best get something cheap like the MiG-29M2 which can quickly replace MiG-21’s and the like. And let’s be honest.. if you are eventually going to seek a 5th generation fighter, both the MiG and mirage are obsolete, might as well go for the cheaper one to tide you down until the more capable aircraft exists.
Thanks – I didn’t know that the MiGs would be faster to produce (i was under the impression that it was the opposite since many of its technologies are still under development). But your reasoning makes complete sense.
uss noviceHello Harry,
yes, it would be awesome to get the rafales – i would agree absolutely. If we are going to take that kind of time – go with something like rafale. In terms of deleting a line, aren’t we already deleting the MiG21s and the 23s.
But one thing that surely sucks about this situation is that if there is a war in this period and the pakistanis (since they don’t have to wait for a fat bureaucracy to make decisions) have acquired a whole bunch of f16 blk 50s, there would be hell to pay.
kind regards,
USS.
uss noviceNo Bars-29. At the moment, it’s Zhuk-ME. Although advertised with a TWS capability of 10 (or sometimes 20) targets, if you really need a high quality track, the capability is for 6 targets.
The MiG-29M is probably better in the air-to-air role but I’d go for the French machine simply due to their product support that can in no way, be matched by MiG.
The weapon systems and hardpoint arrangements on the Mirage are already configured for optimal loadouts. Then you have the SCALP-EG and the capability for giant 2000 litre drop tanks. On the MiG-29, the LDP placement would be a headache.
Thank you Harry. Yes, the Mirage seems to be a more ready platform than the MiG29M2. This would give it a huge edge in terms of the IAF purchase (considering that they need the a/c quickly).
Some questions:
I had read somewhere that they planned to use the brahmos with the MiG29M2 (even saw some pics with MiG29 and Yakhont/BrahMos nearby) – may be they are working something out?
would the product support not be assured if we are going in for licensed production w. migs (If we can produce the product, should we not be able to support it as well?) or does it not work like this for a/c manufacturing?
if they are getting these a/c primarily to replace the MiG21s (a to a defence planes), then would not the MiG29M2 be a better bet than the Mirage since a strike capacity for this a/c is only a secondary need?
This is something that really confuses me – :confused:
while the IAF talks of needing these a/c pronto, they also say the order will be placed in around 2 years! whoa, is that like not really slow? If in fact it is going to take such a long time to place the order, I’m sure they could get the MiG to work out all its kinks by then and make the MiG29M2 (with Mkization) comparable to the Su 30MKI, albeit with lower range and weapons load capcty, it might be better than the mirage.
On ther other hand, if they decide to move really, really quick (and start getting the planes delivered in that time), the Mirage seems to be the only viable alternative.
Kind Regards,
USS.
uss novicePit, Thank you v.much for the article kind sir – did you have it posted on ACIG too? Seems that I had read it somewhere before.
Radical changes were undergone by structure of the onboard equipment. As the basic sensor control the “Zhuk-ME” already delivered on export in structure MiG- 29SMT. “Zhuk – ME” simultaneous bombardment of four air purposes and mapping of a terrestrial surface with the sanction of 5 m (in the future – up to 1 m) acts BRLS provides. RSK “MiG” has already received such nine radars for a complete set of serial planes. In a variant for MiG- 29K one “Zhuk” is collected and three are under construction more – it is required for OKR so much. The first copy is established on stand GosNiIaS created for adaptation BRLS with other elements of an onboard complex.
Does this mean that the a/cs (MiG29K and possibly the MiG29M2) will have the Zhuk-ME and not the Bars 29 or is it some sort of an advanced variant of the Zhuk-ME? Perhaps it is the new AESA version that Phazatron (or was it NIIP) promises by the end of this year :diablo:
uss noviceWith this planned buy, IAF will have 60 M2Ks. The old ones can be upgraded to Dash 5 levels. I feel it is a clear signl that the IAF wants M2K-5 for the MRCA role as well. I’d prefer Rafale but the one big advantage of the M2K is that they can be integrated pronto. 130 odd MRCA M2K-5s plus the Qatari deal and upgraded existing Vajras will give IAF close to 200 M2K-5s.
Add to that around 200 Su-30 MKIs, we have the Hi and the Medium covered for the next 2 decades.
For the low end, we have the LCA and 70 odd MiG-29s.
Golden Arrow,
Yes sir, this would indeed be a good move (even though i still feel the Mig29m2Mkized would be a great plane) simply because the way I see it, the best plane is the one that can be inducted fastest. Frankly, any of the planes being offered is good enough to take care of the neighborhood threats.
Perhaps they will go in for a sqd of f16s blk 60s -AESA just to use as a training sqd for our boys (of course it would give a great multirole capacity as well)? this might be a good idea or even better – 1 sqd of rafales? It would be a pain in the neck to maintain this unique little sqd though.
This brings me to a question (probably a novice question)- can the F16s AESA be data linked with the Mirages of IAF? Would this give the mirages an AESA type advantage in terms of early detection?
that may make it worth buying just the single sqd.
Kind Regards,
USS.
uss noviceKind of difficult to find similarities Other than obvious (color) from this picture comparison. Perhaps you can give more details on the tech specs of each missile for a better comparison?
Kind Regards,
USS.
uss noviceHi,
I’m new here, but have been lurking around for some time:) From visiting quite a few forums (BRF, ACIG etc), it seems that most people who seem to know about a/c and the indian mrca requirement always prefer the M2K-5 as the best solution. I suppose this is based on the IAF’s preference as well. However, i can’t help but wonder, what about the MiG 29M2MKIzed? Wouldn’t that be a great a/c as well. TVC and the nice zhuk to boot (maybe even the bars)? Also, the Russian offer (esp. since MiG is not doing too well) could be a little cost effective. The French always seem to have a huge tag to their equipmnt (eg. recent scorpene affair).
Perhaps we can get a bunch of MiG29s + just one sqd of F 16s w AESA (paying top $). This would give us a taste of the best, also help make a great aggressor sqd. Of course cant expect TOT for the f16s, but we should get this kind of tech sooner or later, perhaps by joining JSF progrm?
if this is not possible, I s’pose we should just go for the Mirages 🙁 (I really am a MiG29 fan). it would be good to get at least a few Rafales though (new tech and all).
In either case, perhaps those who know better might consider doing a comparison between MiG29M2 (or the MIG29K w. tvc for land) VS the Mirage 2000-5MK2 (or at least point out a thread where this may have been discussed, i coudn’t find one). It would be fascinating to learn your thoughts.
Regards,
USS.
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