BobKatDennis,
You may find the following link helpful if you want to research the H2S radar parts. Item 505 in the VMARS index has a number of illustrations.
BobKatdenperk5,
It certainly looks as if we both have the same piece. I guess that, as you say, the labelling might have got confused!
BobKatdenperk5,
Item 52 looks like a spring-loaded plunger from a bomb carrier fuzing attachment, as used on Lancasters but probably standard on others.
You can see illustrations in Air Ministry’s reply (post #309) to my pictures in post #307 on page 11 of the “Wreckage of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z)” thread. There is a picture for the items found at location 20 in the thread’s picture gallery. Our piece was marked R3 138 and AT30454. The R3 138 is an Avro marking. Do you have any numbers on your pieces 52? Interesting that you think they might be from H2S radar – do you have any pictures of them in situ?
BobKatNick,
How amazing that you have managed to come up with the answers to our mysterious items (91). Your links are much appreciated. The musical box is a perfect match! As you will have seen there was always a suspicion that the round plate was from a clock!
We can only speculate as to what they were doing alongside the path in the forest. Valuable antiques hidden from the occupying forces – or discarded parts from items no longer in working order???
Thanks again.
…………………………………..
For ease of reference the two Musical Box items are compared below. An identical match!!
I hope you have found the picture-gallery of use in your research, Nick.
BobKatA Happy New Year to all followers of this thread, and a brief update of what is happening in France.
The Forêt du Croc is managed by the Office National des Forêts (ONF), which is similar to the British Forestry Commission, and Laurent has recently informed me that loggers were felling trees in the area of the crash site. It may be that this will bring to light a few more pieces of the aircraft. Or perhaps bury some others further below the surface!!
When the work is finished, Laurent may have something more to report.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatInteresting that you think that, Peter. It seems we are stuck unless we can establish the dimensions of what may be two similar pieces in the tail plane and the outer wing trailing edge.
I don’t think there can be any markings on the half piece that we have, or Laurent would have let me know
BobKatItem 101
Peter, some further food for thought. I attach pictures from the restoration of FM212 (thanks to Rhino93’s photobucket) which may help.
First, on the left, there are two pictures of the tail plane showing the rudder lever connecting rod. Unfortunately, this is pictured from the ‘wrong’ side from our point-of-view, but it appears that the rod is secured in position through the ribs by a piece with two bolts on each side (one side is obscured by the stringer). This would seem to be something very like our piece, but it is not separately described in the Parts List for the Empennage Rudder Flying and Trimmer Controls (Figure 25).
On the right is a picture of the flap and aileron control rods at the end of the outer wing, but with nothing to show the internal view. We only have the diagram of the Wing Trailing Edge in the Parts List (Figure 7) to help.
It seems to me that it is unlikely that we have something from the tail plane, as pieces from this have been found along the northern edge of the forest. The parts from one of the tail fins which have been found are about 300 yards away. I suppose that it is possible that part of the tail plane broke away with the fin and rudder, but the other related pieces seem to be too far away.
Given where item 101 was found, not far from pieces known to be from the flap control rod and the outer wing ribs which were probably scattered by an explosion, I still think that it is more likely, provided its dimensions are right, that we have a piece from the outer wing trailing edge as illustrated in the diagram.
If anyone can throw any further light on this, or has any photographs of the aileron control rod in situ which would help to confirm the identification, I should be glad to hear.
BobKatItem 101
Peter, I think the easiest way to answer your question is to attach a copy of the overall site plan. There are less cluttered views with the parts listed near the beginning of the photo-gallery.
You will see from the contours on the map that the forest slopes sharply downwards towards the path at the eastern edge. Item 101 was found close to item 56, a fuel priming pump, on the upper part of the slope.
The nearest items further down the slope (all of which have been identified by their part numbers) were:
55: Oil tank filler cap arm nut (33/P1888)
57: Wing rib bracket (No.6 or 7) (1SS 3488)
57: Dust cap from wing trailing edge (10F 3599)
58: Flap operating tube washer (7/R2060)
79: Flap operating tube washer (8/R2060)
97: Bracket outer wing rib No.11 (36F 3709)
Back in his posts #673 and 683, Planehunters said that he thought there must have been an explosion shortly before the aircraft came to earth. This explains the pattern of scattered wreckage from what we now know is the port wing on the eastern edge of the forest. The engine and undercarriage pieces are a little further away at the bottom of the slope. Hence my thought that item 101 is highly likely to be from the outer wing, and possibly from the trailing edge like the pieces nearby. The only piece which looks like ours which I can find amongst all of the Parts List illustrations is the one I have identified as a bracket for the aileron control rod (between wing ribs No.16 to 21). It looks right to me, but maybe there are other possibilities? What do you think?
BobKatThere have been several hundred views of the thread since my last post, but no alternative suggestions as to what item 101 might be. I will therefore assume that my potential identification is probably what the piece is, and on the assumption that this is so, I have updated the index accordingly.
Included with photo-gallery, near the beginning, there are several plans showing the progress of the searches from March 2012 to November 2016. For those interested in the forensic analysis, after these, there are now three separate annotated plans of the wreckage area showing the location of all identified pieces found to November 2016, followed by a diagram showing where on the aircraft some of the more significant pieces were positioned. These have been updated since my post #1049. We have now catalogued over 200 items found at more than 100 locations.
The index to the parts found is simply a chronological listing of the items found with their location numbers and, where appropriate, a cross-reference to the illustrations from the Parts List.
This thread has now been running for four years and, amazingly, a total of over 144,000 views have accumulated. My thanks again to all those who have contributed. Without your help, the forensic analysis would have been impossible. In this time, and for about a year previously, Laurent’s searches for wreckage have covered an area about a quarter-of-a-mile square (or 40 acres). His perseverance, and his ability to find small objects around and in the forest, has been incredible! When we first made contact some five years ago, Laurent said that he wanted to ensure that the crew of the aircraft were not forgotten. I am sure that the many readers of this thread will join me in thanking him for all his efforts and in recognising the considerable amount of time involved in achieving his objective.
We will now await further news when Laurent has the time available to continue his searching.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatItem 101
It seems that nothing more is forthcoming about our mystery ‘clock’ or the piece described as a Seafire ‘relic’. Much has been discovered along the fringes of the forest and near its pathways, but the latest find earlier this month has come from a point up the slope some distance from the eastern edge of the forest, next to where a fuel priming pump was found over two years ago, and in the general area where pieces of the outer wing have been found a little closer to the edge of the forest. For this reason, I am assuming that the new part, item 101 pictured below from different angles, is likely be from the outer wing. It is about 60mm (a little over 2 inches) wide and is between 5mm and 9mm (a third of an inch) thick. It appears to be part of a load-bearing bracket. The reverse side shows hexagonal bolts with what appears to be small remnants of the fuselage to which it was attached under the bolt heads. These could be fragments of a wing rib from which it was ripped away.
At first I thought it might be part of the attachment for the undercarriage retracting strut to the rear spar, but it is the wrong shape and does not appear substantial enough. The piece found has broken at the point of a central aperture and has a strengthening ridge. This appears to fit with the illustration of the bracket for the aileron control rod in the Parts List as shown in the annotated diagram below. This is the area of the trailing edge from which other items were found nearby: a dust cap and two washers from the flap control rod.
There were probably similar fittings in the tail plane, but I cannot find details in the Parts List.
Can anyone please confirm whether are there other similar bracket fittings elsewhere on the aircraft, or does this identification seem right?
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatThanks, Peter. I’m not surprised – we probably have pieces of a clock, but why it was buried by the side of the path, who can tell? A wartime cache hidden from the occupying forces??? Or something no longer in working order, carelessly discarded???
The intriguing thing is the Seafire ‘relic’ at the bottom right of the picture – perhaps, not a relic at all? But if anybody does recognize what it is, then I would be glad to hear.
BobKatThanks, Peter, I thought I was being a bit optimistic!!
It’s time to move on to the last of the old unidentified pieces which are the two items at location 91. These were found near the propeller pitch gear at location M5, and not far from the World War One French grenade launcher! They did not attract any comment following my post #983. When Laurent sent the pictures to me, he said that they looked a little like parts of a clock. The diameter of the circular plate is 8.6cm (3⅜ in) and the rectangular piece is 9cm (about 3½ inches) across. The two pictures on the left in the attachment below show the pieces as originally photographed in February. On their right are new pictures of the reverse view of the two items. Next there are two close-up pictures of the working parts of the rectangular piece, showing several small serrated gear wheels and a bridge-like part in the corner. Underneath there is a close-up view of the serial number at the bottom of the circular piece. Laurent thinks this is 13626, but with the light at a different angle the photo suggests the number could be 43 B2B – if so, might ‘43’ be a year mark? Or is this just a trick of the light?
Then, at the top right, there is a picture of part of an antique French clock. There is a remarkable similarity with the circular piece – the v-shaped notch, the three small holes to the left of the notch, and the three screw holes around the circumference of the circular plate, slightly offset from the vertical axis and positioned in a ‘triangular’ format.
This would be highly persuasive evidence of this piece being part of a clock were it not for the circular ‘relic’ said to be from a Seafire which is pictured at the bottom right and which has the remains of a screw in one of the ‘triangular’ holes. Although not identical to our piece, it has certain similarities, and appears to have been painted red. Is it possible that our piece could be from an aircraft clock, or some instrument with pointer ‘hands’ such as the altimeter or triple brake pressure gauge? However, this does not seem likely from where it was found, near some engine-related pieces by the path running along the eastern edge of the forest. Can anyone confirm whether there were any gauges similar to those on the pilot’s instrument panel in the undercarriage well, please? I am not aware of any.
Turning now to the rectangular piece – could this be part of a clock movement or casing, as seems likely? Or is it something quite different? What is the function of the raised round structure in the corner which is shown in the close-ups? I have looked at pictures of aircraft clocks, but I have been unable to trace anything similarly shaped to either of the two pieces.
Overall, assuming the two parts are from the same item, we seem to be looking at pieces from a delicate mechanical object requiring gear wheels to operate – maybe either a clock or an instrument gauge with pointer hands?
Does anybody recognise either of these pieces as possibly related to the aircraft, or perhaps, like the grenade launcher, Laurent has found some relics of the past unconnected with the aircraft? Any thoughts would be welcome, please, particularly from anybody who knows anything about the internal workings of clocks!
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatMany thanks, Peter. Lots of pictures, but all modern, and nothing quite like our piece. I guess your reference may be for a North American equivalent of a British item. The only picture I have found with anything looking like our pieces is of a small transformer in a TR1196 radio, but there is only one item – we have three! And the windings form an oval shape rather than what seems to be the circular shape of ours.
So, assuming these are transformers as suggested by Terry P, your idea of these being ballast units connected to the lighting circuitry would certainly make sense.
My recent pictures have certainly stimulated some interesting suggestions, but the potential identifications remain inconclusive without photos or diagrams of the pieces in situ, so I think we will have to leave it there unless any other ideas come forward. My thanks to all involved.
I don’t suppose you have any pictures for the cable clamps and the electrical wiring tray along the front spar, Peter? – I can’t find anything of the interior of the aircraft showing these in position – only the diagram I posted.
I will post Laurent’s new photos of item 91 when I have completed a little further research.
BobKatPeter, that’s great, but I can’t find the part number you quote in the Parts List and an internet search doesn’t show anything. Can you point me in the right direction, please?
BobKatMany thanks Terry P. That’s a real change of direction!! But it makes complete sense as they were found next to items which are assumed to be radio valves.
The challenge is now to find a picture of the parts in airborne equipment as used in a Lancaster!
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