BobKatAutumn is nearly upon us. Once the leaves have started to fall, Laurent will be able to see his way through the undergrowth of the Forêt du Croc, and he will be able to recommence his search for pieces of wreckage on the upper slopes.
This thread has been dormant during the summer months since the end of June, and I was surprised to find that over this period it has received more than 4,000 views – an average of around 50 per day. Clearly this topic is a continuing source of interest, no doubt to many ‘guest’ readers who are not members of the forum. It would be interesting to hear what attracts followers of the thread – whether it is the story which has unfolded and the discussion over the identification of parts found, the photos recording the wreckage, or the illustration from the parts list – or perhaps a combination of these?
Followers of the thread may therefore be interested to know that the story of the fateful sortie is now told in a chapter by Sean Feast in the recently published book “V-Weapons Bomber Command – Failed to Return”. My thanks to Sean and to the publishers of the ‘Failed to Return’ series. As it says in the Foreword; “We Will Remember Them”.
Let us hope for some news from France of renewed activity in the forest in the not too-distant future.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatIt was not until I read his obituary today that I recognised the name of the accounting firm in which he was a partner. It merged into the firm in which I was also a (much younger) partner in London. I can just about remember meeting him before he retired, but I had no idea of his wartime heroisim at that time – not something that he would have talked about. My sympathies to his family.
BobKatMe too – back at the end of March – I think the IP address was in Indonesia. Maybe one of the moderators could comment? This seems to be more than an isolated incident.
BobKatHennie, yes it was a considerable amount of work, but very rewarding!!
I have sent you a personal message regarding the parts list.
BobKatUpdate
Unsurprisingly there is no further news from France. The attached photographs show why!!
On the left is the main crash site pictured in May 2012 after a concentrated search of the cordoned area near the edge of the forest. The contrast of the foliage of the undergrowth of the same area pictured from a different angle a year earlier in August 2011 is plain to see.
It is understandable that Laurent is unable to carry out any productive searches deeper into the forest with the summer undergrowth in that condition!
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatHennie, I have just read the article in the latest edition of Memorial Flight. A fascinating story with a lot of research and, inevitably, unanswered questions. A few thoughts to add: could either or both of the aircraft have suffered ruptured fuel tanks and damage to the flying controls, making a forced landing inevitable? You have suggested that the flares seen might have been dropped in an attempt to find a level site for a crash-landing? This seems entirely plausible. However this doesn’t answer the question as to why nobody baled out. Perhaps they reckoned that their chances of survival were better by staying on board?
It was interesting to see the the photograph of the remains of ND527. I have only contemporary aerial reconnaissance photos of the forest which appear to show traces of the wreckage of ED908, and being surrounded by trees it is difficult to see much detail. I’ll look forward to seeing pictures of anything else you find at the site.
BobKatPeter, I hadn’t intended my last post to give the impression that Laurent might be giving up his searches! He tells me that the forest is now in full leaf, making searching amongst the undergrowth difficult. He has already covered much of the perimeter of the forest and it may be that there will be more to find on the upper slopes when he has some time to spare.
I have taken the opportunity of this lull to prepare an index of all the items discovered to date in location number order, which follows the sequence of the pictures in the photo gallery. There are over 200 items listed. The majority of these have been identified, and the position of many in the aircraft has been ascertained, enabling the way in which ED908 came to earth to be established. Considering the bulk of the wreckage was removed after the war was over, it is remarkable how much has survived: as Laurent has said to me – there always seems to be something to be discovered. However, with wreckage scattered over an area of about 25 acres, future finds within the forest will increasingly rely on chance.
For my own purposes I have used the relevant illustrations in my recently acquired copy of the Lancaster Parts List to help determine the location of items found on the aircraft. It should be mentioned that these diagrams are related to the post-war use of the Canadian-built Mk.X aircraft and, whilst many areas are unchanged from the British-built Mk.III version, others have been subject to Canadian Modifications. Nevertheless it is a very helpful guide. I attach below a link to the index, which is referenced to the annotated illustrations, and which may be of interest to readers of this thread. It includes all finds up to April 2015.
Photo-gallery:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=BCF75E8AD40ADF0D!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!1426&authkey=!AAJOZyTYrN-x0CQ&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatEarlier today this thread accumulated its 100,000th view. It is gratifying to see the continuing interest in this topic. Looking back over the last two-and-a-half years, there have been 25 members of the Forum from around the world who have contributed their thoughts to help with the identification of the pieces Laurent has found. I am most grateful to you all, and particularly to you Peter, for your unflagging assistance, and to Air Ministry and WV-903 for your knowledgeable and enthusiastic support throughout this whole period. I think we can collectively be thoroughly satisfied with what has been achieved in the investigation of the crash site.
It is just less than four years since Laurent and I first made contact as follows:
“03 June 2011
Bonsoir , je connais la zone du crash du LANCASTER N° ED908 60-Z, j’ai trouvé des morceaux dans mon terrain! Si vous voulez plus d’informations , écrivez-moi!
04 June 2011
Bonsoir , j’habite au Manoir du Val, le crash est à 50 Metres de ma maison, je n’arrive pas à vous mettre des photos! Il y a depuis l’année 2004 que je cherche des réponses à mes trouvailles , j’ai réussi à trouver sur internet les noms des équipages du Lancaster, ça me tient à coeur, de donner vie aux hommes qui ont donner leur vie, pour nous les français, j’ ai 34 ans, alors que eux etaient plus jeune! Je veux leurs donner une nouvelle vie et qu’on ne les oublie pas! “
This translates to say that the crash site was 50 metres from Laurent’s home and that he had found some wreckage on his land. He had been searching for information since 2004, and that he had succeeded in finding the names of the crew on the internet. It was important to him to give a new life to the young men who had given their lives for the French, so that they were not forgotten.
I think we can reasonably say that through the medium of this Forum, and with the erection of a splendid memorial in the local churchyard, Laurent’s wishes have been fulfilled. My thanks to everyone who has been involved, both on the Forum and in the local community of Freulleville, and, of course, to Laurent without whom none of this would have been achieved.
With the VE-Day 70th anniversary commemorations fresh in mind (sad that the BBMF Lancaster couldn’t participate), I attach a few pictures in memory of the crew: their original resting places in the Freulleville churchyard pictured in 1946; their headstones in the Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery pictured in July 2014; and the Memorial now erected in the Freulleville churchyard, close to where they were originally buried. There are other pictures in the photo gallery.
Photo gallery link:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatLocation 4
Thanks Peter. Here’s another identification of an old piece from a diagram, this time from the Mk.III Parts List. In post #51, I said that there was a piece which looked like a slot for a sliding bolt. In post #53 you thought this could either be part of the locking mechanism for the rear turret draught-proof doors, or possibly for one of the upper fuselage escape hatches. I cannot find a similar fitting on the emergency exits, but the attached diagram shows what looks to be ‘our’ piece found at location 4 as part of the draught-proof doors.
If this identification is correct, then it is quite significant because other pieces found close by included a piece of ammunition ducting to the rear turret, and a rudder controls inspection panel. This strongly suggests that the main fuselage was still intact at the time of impact with the ground, as pieces from the bomb bay were found just forward of this position.
Photo gallery link:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatItem 5
I have been working through the diagrams in my recently acquired Mk.X Parts List and have found one which confirms a very early find at location 5, referred to in my first post!
WV-903 identified the ground power socket from the auxiliary starting panel and thought the other item in the picture was a heavy duty relay of some sort. The diagram attached below confirms that this is the solenoid switch on the same panel. The ‘letter-box’ type opening in the diagram is clearly visible in the photographs.
Photo gallery link:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=bcf75e8ad40adf0d!164&authkey=!AJrxfdmdr6MXSdw&ithint=folder%2cjpg
BobKatjohanb49,
I have been researching another aircraft from 582 Sqn – ED908 60-Z – shot down on 20 July 1944. I have found photographs of 582 Sqn aircraft very difficult to find. I wish you luck with your research. I have several pictures of Little Staughton airfield as it is today, but again very few of it during its wartime use.
You might find the attached Roll of Honour of interest.
BobKatItem 87
Peter, now that we have discounted the pilot’s sliding window from our deliberations, I attach a couple of illustrations of the engine cowling which show the diagonal rivet pattern above and below the exhaust stacks, but these are not conclusive. Presumably the removable cowlings would be strengthened at their edges, perhaps in a similar manner to the piece we have?
I have noted a similar rivet pattern on the trailing edge of the wing tip, so suddenly we may have a variety of choices making it difficult, if not impossible, to determine what we have.
The location of the piece found is a little distance from items identified as being from the outer wing (including 59, the formation-keeping lamp fairing), but closer to a piece from the undercarriage well (62, the union for the autopilot oil reservoir). Without knowing exactly what each piece might look like, it seems to me that item 87 may be marginally more likely to be part of the engine cowling than from the wing tip trailing edge, where the metalwork would probably be rather more substantial in nature?
Unless anyone has any other ideas, we probably can’t take this one any further, leaving our best guess as it possibly being part of the port inner engine cowling.
BobKatItem 87
This one won’t lie down!! Laurent has come back to me to say that he has scratched the central material between the metal strips, and that it is definitely aluminium. All I can now think of is that it could be part of the nacelle fairing where I can see some diagonally positioned rivets on diagrams and photographs. One edge of our piece is smooth and the other jagged, suggesting that it has been ripped apart.
The only other diagram I have showing similar diagonally placed rivets is at the join of the wing tip to the outer wing, but is this likely?
Any more thoughts, Peter?
BobKatPeter, I agree.
For ease of reference, as the original picture is now on a previous page, I attach a copy below. The material between the two outer strips looks too wide to be part of the aluminium fuselage, and is differently coloured. And why would a piece of aluminium have two strips attached in this manner? The gap between the strips seems to be about the right size for a glass or Perspex fitting.
My chemistry knowledge is more than a bit rusty, but I do wonder whether some sort of leaching effect may have taken place from underground moisture giving the material a different appearance. Despite Laurent’s comments, I still think it is most likely that we have a piece of a sliding window. As you say, this is the only piece so far established to have the same rivet pattern.
BobKatItem 87
Laurent has had another look at item 87, the metal strip containing another material. He says that it definitely appears to be aluminium positioned between the two strips. I assume that, if this piece was from the pilot’s sliding window, it would be either perspex or bullet-proof glass that would be expected to be contained within the frame, not aluminium? Unless being under the ground for 70 years has had an effect on the appearance of the material, it seems that we may have jumped to the wrong conclusion about this piece.
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