BobKatHave you seen the photo of NN742 IQ-U on the following link?
http://www.fiskertonairfield.org.uk/photo2_8.html
BobKatAgreed, Peter!! I have to say that my last posting of the two old items was more in hope than expectation, so it was a real bonus when you responded with a positive identification. I have just heard from Laurent this morning to say that the ‘electrical’ piece is too damaged to read any markings to help with identification. There’s probably not much more that can now be done on that, or indeed on any of the other unidentified pieces.
Laurent and I have exchanged some thoughts on future activity. Laurent is currently very busy with his work and he has spent much of his spare time over the last two years exploring about 25 acres of forest. The responses on this thread to the photographs posted have enabled us to establish a reasonably clear pattern of where the two parts of the aircraft came to earth, and I must again thank all those who have contributed to this outcome – Air Ministry with your numerous encyclopaedic references, WV-903 for your enthusiastic comments from the outset, Planehunters for your thoughts on the crash site, and also the many others who have helped, but particularly you, Peter, for all your time and patient research on my behalf. What has been achieved has far exceeded all my expectations when I made my first tentative posting some 18 months ago.
When he has some spare time, Laurent will now concentrate his activity on looking for evidence of the elusive fourth engine. Unless he has success at the bottom of the crater at the corner of the forest, we will probably never obtain any positive assurance as it will be impossible to identify the parts of one engine as distinct from another – it is quite possible that parts have already, unknowingly, been found from two engines on the eastern edge of the forest. The location and identification of further parts will probably not add a great deal to what is already known, so this will be less of a priority.
I shall be compiling a ‘dossier’ of what has been found, marshalling the information gathered and I intend to produce a very limited number of copies for Laurent, myself and any of the relatives of the crew who are interested. This will be purely for personal use, private study, and non-commercial research. If anyone who has contributed to this thread would like more information, please send me a private message. The timing of this is geared to the impending 70th anniversary of the loss of the aircraft and crew, when many of the relatives are planning to travel to France to commemorate the events of 20 July 1944.
BobKatI don’t believe there are any markings on the electrical piece, but I will ask.
BobKatPeter, what a fantastic result – more evidence of the inboard engine. I had never expected such a quick response – very many thanks.
BobKatThere is nothing further to report yet from France and so I have been looking again at all the photographs Laurent has sent in the light of the analysis now undertaken of where the wreckage has been found. In post #544 I pictured a piece of green pipe with two other objects which attracted no comment at the time. These pieces were found a little further up the slope from items which have now been identified as being from the outer wing and a little further away from some engine parts. This might trigger a thought as to the possible identification of the two smaller pieces in location 55 which I now picture in enlarged detail, after taking into account the possible scattering effect of an explosion just before what is assumed to be the port wing, hit the ground.
The piece on the left seems to have a sprung clip secured by a hexagonal nut with some strands of thin wire visible at the bottom left (electrical?), and the item on the right bears an obscured reference number, possibly ‘R3’ (but maybe not) followed by what appears to be ‘/ P1888’, but the second number is not clear – it could be a 3 or a 9 rather than an 8. Does this strike any chords with anyone, or does this number appear in a parts list to which anyone might have access?
As always, all thoughts are welcome.
BobKatI have now been in contact with Laurent.
There is only one local resident who is still able to recall the fall of the aircraft, and there is nothing that can be added by way of further corroboration of what happened in 1944 – he has already provided his account of what he remembers. We can therefore only speculate as to whether there was a second explosion above or on the ground, as is probable. It seems that the German forces had no time to salvage any of the aircraft before the arrival of Allied troops, who appear to have quickly continued their advance. After the war, other areas had priority, and it seems that the crash site was eventually cleared by scrap metal merchants in the early 1950s. They would have removed all large items which were visible. The extent to which they explored the upper slopes of the forest away from the paths is unknown, but it is quite possible that they would have investigated the crater at the corner of the forest if this was readily accessible (and not full of rubbish) at the time – why would they have left the brake shoes if they were readily visible in the crater? Only the smaller items concealed by the undergrowth or buried beneath the surface would have been likely to survive in the position in which they fell, and these seem to be the pieces that are now coming to light, having lain undisturbed for nearly 70 years.
BobKatMany thanks for your further thoughts, Planehunters. I agree with you that possibly the main fuselage, and probably the port wing, appear to have exploded just before impact. The area where the greatest number of pieces have been discovered is where the main fuselage was said to have come to rest. This is at the edge of the forest alongside the path which continues from the road (location 1). This would also be an obvious place with vehicular access at which to gather together the pieces of wreckage for removal. However what has been found there is consistent with what would be expected to be found from the forward end and interior of the fuselage including the bomb bay. Engine parts are close by with most of the undercarriage parts further away, which may suggest an angled descent (as indicated by the eye-witness and shown on the plan). There is nothing so far positively identified at location 1 as being part of the wings.
The most persuasive evidence that we have parts from both wings is the matching brake shoes with two different wear patterns found at locations 53 and 54 on the one hand and at location 12 on the other. On the basis of what has been discovered to date, I continue to hold the view that the port wing which detached from the fuselage in mid-air must therefore have fallen along the eastern edge of the forest as indicated on the plan. The pieces found and the part numbers appearing on some of the items support this. In particular, the pieces from the outer wing were found at some distance up the steep slope from the edge of the forest.
There is also vehicular access to the forest from the road leading to the eastern edge which continues as a track through the forest, but there is no concentration of pieces found from different parts of the aircraft all in one place, although there were a large number of small pieces at location 40 including several identified engine pieces (M6) close to the edge of the track – this would be another possible collection point. However, items are generally scattered in a pattern that might be expected from a wing exploding just before impact, as you suggest.
With the possible exception of item 27, nothing found has been identified as being from any of the gun turrets which were most likely to have been removed from the site along with the larger pieces of the fuselage.
What also needs to be taken into account is the density of the trees of the forest. The crash site is not a flat open area, but a sloping wooded one which would have made the recovery and transportation of the larger surviving pieces of the fuselage more awkward.
The information I have from a family historian who carried out some research into one of the crew members is that advancing Canadian troops discovered the wreckage about a month after the aircraft was shot down. Unfortunately this is uncorroborated and the source of this information is not recorded. However, it suggests that it may not have been the occupying German forces that salvaged the larger pieces of the wreckage, but perhaps the Allied forces who did so at a later time. More may come to light when the Missing Research & Enquiry Unit reports for 1944 eventually become available at the National Archives.
In the meantime I will see if Laurent can obtain any further details from any of the now small number of residents who witnessed the events and who may be able to recollect what happened at the time of the incident and how the wreckage was dealt with at the end of the war.
BobKatGood question, Peter, to which the short answer is, I don’t know.
If an engine did fall where Laurent is digging, then looking at the location of the wreckage we have identified, the greater probability is that the engine must have separated from the wing. Otherwise it might have been expected to have been found further to the west along the northern edge in the area where the fuselage (and the starboard wing?) came to rest, or further south along the eastern edge nearer the location of the pieces found from the undercarriage and the outer (port?) wing.
I am still struggling to see the pattern of how the port and starboard wings fell – the locations of the undercarriage, wheel-well parts and brake shoes are confusing. It would seem that much might be explained by an explosion just above the ground as Planehunters suggested. If this was what happened, then it would be less likely that the propeller was still fitted and turning. In this connection I don’t know what to make of the fact that Laurent has found only the tip of one propeller blade.
BobKatI have been in contact with Laurent over the weekend. The hole at location 12 is now about 1.7 metres deep. I understand that the local residents filled the crater with rubbish over the years and it is this that Laurent has had to clear. The pictures he has sent show a profusion of bottles, plastic containers, broken crockery, a bucket and even an old shoe!! But, as yet, nothing more from the aircraft.
One of the local residents, now in his seventies, remembers helping to cut up the tyre from the main wheel to make shoe soles. Apparently the undercarriage struts were still attached to the wheel at the time. He did not witness the crash itself, so cannot confirm whether an engine fell at the corner of the forest. It seems that some debris still remained on the site in 1952.
Laurent has been told that a falling engine would probably create a crater about 2 metres wide and 1.5 metres deep – does this sound right? It seems to be roughly the size of the hole he has now excavated at the bottom of which he found the brake shoes. Would the undercarriage on its own cause a crater of this depth? Perhaps there could be more of the undercarriage to discover? And maybe that elusive fourth engine??
Laurent has pointed out that I forgot to show on the photograph with my last post another yellow square for the two brake shoes (without liners) which were found at location 1 at the centre of the left-hand side of the large red rectangle on the northern edge of the forest. It was here also that parts from the bomb bay were found along with pieces of equipment from the interior of the main fuselage.
For a long time this thread seemed to attract a regular following of around 200 viewers or thereabouts, as best as I can judge. Suddenly, in the last few weeks, there have been over 1,000 views during the short period between posts. Looking at the timing of these and the time zones involved, it seems that these must include the UK and Europe, Canada/America and Australia/New Zealand amongst others. If any newcomers to the thread are able to identify any of our mystery items, it would be good to hear. The ones causing the most difficulty, but which are sufficiently distinctive to suggest that identification may be possible are:
Item 15 (the possible equipment mounting – post #1 and #67);
Item 12 (the ‘butterfly valve’ in post #380 – the current consensus is that this is more likely to be from a motor vehicle – but what was it doing at the bottom of the hole next to the brake shoes?);
Item 45 (the possible access panel – post #513).
BobKatFollowing Planehunters’ comments on the likelihood of an explosion in the air just before impact, I have had another look at the 1947 photo (post #349). The areas in which pieces from engines have been found are framed in red on a re-orientated detail from this photo (below), with the locations of undercarriage and wheel-well parts framed in blue, and the outer wing in green. The place at the corner of the forest where the wheel and tyre were hidden by the residents during the war is shown framed in yellow. These are as on the plan attached to post #668 with three amendments:
• the blue-framed area for the undercarriage parts found along the northern edge of the forest has been extended to the left to cover the newly identified corner (4) of another undercarriage locking mechanism;
• the location of the brake shoes and linings from the second wheel (53 and 54) are now shown in yellow within that area; and
• the places where two pieces thought to be from the rear fuselage were found are marked in white: the Monica radar junction box near the northern edge of the forest (32) and part of the tail fin some considerable distance into the forest (38).
Planehunters concluded that the aircraft, or part of it, must have exploded above the ground just before impact. There is no obvious evidence from the photograph of any significant explosion within the forest along the northern edge – although maybe a little thinning of the trees in a few places, but there are two areas bare of trees on the eastern edge where pieces of the undercarriage and an engine were discovered, and where pieces of the outer wing were found. Although these could be natural clearings in the forest, it is not difficult to visualise that these areas might have been devastated by explosions of the two outer fuel tanks in the port wing. The main port fuel tank is presumed to have already exploded in mid-air.
There may, perhaps, be more to find on the eastern edge of the forest, but what has already been found suggests that small fragments could have been scattered over large distances. The location of the Monica radar junction box and part of the tail fin are curious. The flames from the port wing were said to be streaming back as far as the tail plane as the aircraft completed its bombing run. It can only be assumed that part or all of one of the tail fins also separated from the aircraft as it broke up after the mid-air explosion and that this fell to earth some distance from the main fuselage perhaps with some other parts from the aft area. It should be noted that another part from the tail plane, the rudder controls inspection panel (3) was recovered from where the main fuselage fell along the northern edge of the forest in the area framed in red, suggesting that at least part of the tail plane was still attached to the fuselage on impact.
The alternative is that parts from the rear of the aircraft were catapulted forward some distance away from the point of impact as the aircraft hit the ground. Although I suppose this is possible, somehow it seems less likely – the distances involved appear to be too great, and the trees of the forest might have been expected to have intervened to prevent all but the smallest objects from travelling very far, but then I have no experience of other crash sites to know what might be anticipated.
Any further thoughts would be much appreciated.
The large bare area in the lower left corner of the picture, on the edge of which the piece of the tail fin was found, would seem to have been created by wartime bombing – there are what appear to be bomb craters visible. This area was subsequently replanted with conifers. The target indicators found fell on the edge of the bare area near the path to the right of the road seen at the bottom left corner of the picture.
Laurent is currently finding it difficult to make the time available carry out a further search, but when he is able to do so, he intends to concentrate first on location 12.
BobKatMany thanks, Peter. Another one bites the dust (sorry, couldn’t resist that!)
BobKatItem 57A
The attachment brackets on the left in picture 57A (post #566 – reproduced below) have already been identified, but I think I may have now traced the item on the right which Laurent had marked 10F 359.
I have only a small number of copied pages of the parts list, but on the previous page in the list from that on which the washer 7/R.2060 was included (which also covers the Outer Wing Trailing Edge), there is a part numbered 10/F.3599 described as a ‘CAP, dust’ (two of which were fitted). Laurent confirms that there seems to be number partly obscured on the piece found. What we have looks as if it could be a somewhat mangled dust cap, so I guess this may be it.
Can anyone tell me where it was fitted – over the end of the flap operating tube, perhaps? I can’t see any obvious sign of it in any of the pictures I have. There are two more dust caps in the list numbered 11/F.3599, but it is not clear from the extract I have whether these are the equivalent items on the opposite wing or whether all four are on the same wing. My assumption is that F.3599 is a specific item and that the pre-fixed number (10 or 11) is a reference to where it was located – I haven’t yet mastered the intricacies of the parts list numbering system!!
This would be further evidence confirming pieces from the outer wing at that location.
BobKatBenny,
Many thanks for the new photos – a great help.
Thanks also for your thoughts on the crash site – I had hoped that you might be able to comment. The basic facts are as follows (I have the Operations Record Books for 109 Sqn, 582 Sqn and the Oboe ground stations):
ED908 was hit by flak on the final stages of its bombing run, flying at 16,000 feet. The port wing caught fire but, as Oboe leader, the aircraft flew on. The Oboe ground stations confirm a successful bomb release, so barring a hang-up, there were no bombs on board. Almost immediately after the bomb release, before the crew could bale out, there was an explosion and the port wing broke off, as far as I can judge from the eye-witness reports from others flying alongside “the whole of the wing folded upwards at a right angle”, at the join with the fuselage. The aircraft was then said to have turned over on its back and fell in “a crazy downward gyration”. Another eye-witness said “The wing seemed to take forever before it spiralled down to land some distance away”.
Eye-witnesses on the ground reported the bombs falling and overshooting the target.
It seems therefore that we are looking at your scenario A. The main fuselage having turned back on itself towards the target landed on the northern edge of the forest, presumably with the starboard wing still attached, and somewhat remarkably, the port wing landed close by on the eastern edge of the forest. It would be highly likely that there would have been a second explosion in the port wing as it was already ablaze, which would explain the scattering of some of the items found. The crater is relatively small, so unless Laurent is able to unearth anything more, we are left with the mystery of where the fourth engine fell. It could, of course, have disintegrated in mid-air?
BobKatWhile searching for some photos, I came across the following picture of a main wheel from the wreck of Lancaster PD259 (link below with acknowledgements):
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb139/matt0baker/P1010422.jpg
I have sent this to Laurent as it shows what he is looking for at location 12. The magnesium alloy on the hub has corroded revealing the brake shoes with their sprung plates in situ. There seems to be quite a bit of metal around. Interestingly the tyre is slick (untreaded) and there are only nine brake shoes, not ten as shown on other pictures I have seen
BobKatThanks, Peter. As far as I am aware, the brake shoes were steel and the hub was, as you say, magnesium alloy. It seems Laurent may only be able to rely on his trusty spade if he is to find the hub!!
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