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BobKat

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  • in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #937770
    BobKat
    Participant

    Laurent has gathered his strength for a renewed attack on location 12 and has found three more brake shoes with wear patterns matching the first two found. He now has five out of the ten. These must have been from the wheel hidden by the local residents during the war so that they could use the rubber, otherwise they would have been scattered on impact like those from the other wheel. Before he could make further progress at the hole he has dug, more rain intervened, but he did find an RAF button on the path at the east of the forest (item 66).

    While we wait for further news, it is perhaps time to reflect on what has been achieved so far. When I started this thread some 16 months ago, item 27 was a new discovery and everything else had been found before June 2012. What was then known was that the main fuselage had come to rest at location 1 and that fragments of the aircraft were scattered along the northern edge of the forest. It was not anticipated that any significantly sized pieces would be recovered as the fuselage had long-since been removed from the site. Only one piece (No.11, subsequently identified as part of outer wing rib no.17) had been discovered along the eastern fringes of the forest, although at the time it had been marked as being closer to the northern edge – Laurent has re-assessed the positions of some of his finds on the plan (attached below) now that the trees are bare of leaves and it is easier to establish the topography more accurately.

    The recent flurry of activity has led to the identification of a number of engine parts together with pieces from the undercarriage and a wing, and has established that the port wing, which had separated from the aircraft after the mid-air explosion, must have landed on the slopes at the eastern end of the forest.

    The engine which fell at M1 was removed during the war. I had always assumed that this was the outboard engine from the starboard wing, but it must be possible that it could have fallen from the disintegrating port wing, now that it is known that this fell only a few hundred yards away. There are clearly parts of an engine along the northern edge of the forest where the fuselage came to rest (location 1) and a few more close by at M2, M3, and also at 60. These are assumed all to be from one engine, most likely to be the starboard inboard.

    The tip of a propeller blade found at M4 (28) does not assist establishing where the parts of the aircraft came to earth – it could have come from any of the engines, but there are a number of clues. Two brake shoes found at location 1 (without linings attached) were almost certainly part of the starboard undercarriage which was still attached to the main fuselage as the aircraft fell. When two brake shoes were found at location 12 at the corner of the forest, it was initially assumed that they were also from the starboard undercarriage, but doubt was soon created when two more brake shoes with different wear patterns on the linings were found along the northern edge of the forest at locations 53 and 54, nearer to where the aircraft came to rest. These probably belong to the starboard main wheel: if this is so, then this means that the others at location 12 would be from the port wheel. Which begs the question, what created the crater at location 12 – was it an engine and, if so, which one?

    Over a year ago, in December 2012, a propeller pitch gear was found by the path at the eastern edge of the forest (M5). The renewed search revealed further engine parts close by at locations M6 and 48. These pieces were too far apart from those found along the northern edge to be from the same engine, so the place where another engine had fallen had clearly been located. This conclusion was reinforced by the identification of pieces from the wheel well and undercarriage which were found at locations 45, 47, 49, and a little further away at 62, suggesting an explosion or substantial momentum on impact with the ground.

    This last item from the autopilot oil reservoir located in the port wheel well was crucial in establishing that parts from the port wing had been found. Pieces from the wing next to the inboard engine have been identified, including a fuel pipe union from the outer wing leading edge (46) and a gusset plate from rib no.23 at the extremity of the main plane (49), amongst others. This suggests that the pieces nearby were probably from the port inboard engine.

    Finally, two broken halves of the mechanic’s access step located on the main wheel strut were found at locations 45 and 50. At first I thought that these might have been from the same undercarriage, but the pattern which has now emerged suggests otherwise, as two pieces from the Dowty main wheel unit were discovered at location 51, suggesting that piece 50 came from that undercarriage (assumed to be the starboard) and that 45 came from the other, assumed to be the port.

    Pieces seem to have been identified from both undercarriages and two engines.

    So, three engines seem to have been accounted for, where is (or was) the fourth – presumed to be the port outboard? Perhaps buried at location 12, or possibly somewhere on the eastern slopes of the forest? There is an inconsistency between the supposition that it was an inboard engine and main wheel that fell at location 12, and the fact that engine and undercarriage parts have been found in two different directions some distance away. Did the local residents move the wheel and tyre to location 12 from wherever it originally fell, or was this the place it originally came to earth? It looks out of place on the plan. Could the pieces at M5 and M6 be from two different engines? Was the aircraft spiralling out of control as it came to earth, cart-wheeling on impact with the trees, or were the wings breaking up in the air? Was there a massive explosion as the aircraft hit the ground? Some questions with no clear answers, except that it seems unlikely that the port outboard engine was the one that fell in the road (unless it detached from the wing), because pieces from what is assumed to be the port outer wing fell at points 31 and 57/58/59.

    All of which is a rather long-winded preamble to the question, what are the chances of Laurent finding more substantial pieces of a Merlin engine in the crater at location 12, or perhaps on the eastern slopes of the forest? Time will tell, but it might be expected that pieces of the wheel hub would remain buried near the point where the brake shoes were found.

    For followers of the thread who would find a cross-reference for these items to the plan helpful, relevant pieces found can be summarised as follows:

    Undercarriage and wheel well parts

    1: two brake shoes (without linings);
    4: corner of frame for landing gear locking mechanism (only recently identified);
    5: ground power socket;
    41: Dunlop pneumatic brake hose (AHO 411 579)
    50: a piece of the mechanic’s access step;
    51: a piece from the main wheel struts;
    51A: the pin (435782) for locating the attachment shaft of the Dowty undercarriage retracting jack;
    53 and 54: (close together and less than 100 yards westwards from 12) two brake shoes with liners still attached and with a different wear pattern from those found at location 12;

    12: five brake shoes with liners still attached;

    45: (about 100 yards from 50) a piece of the mechanic’s access step;
    47: a frame for the undercarriage locking gear;
    49: a stiffener from the undercarriage door valance; and
    62: a union for the autopilot oil reservoir (6H/68).

    This last piece (from the port wheel well) was found some distance from the others listed.

    Engine and related parts

    M1: the engine that fell in the road;

    M2: two cam followers;
    M3: propeller pitch gear;
    M3: part of anti-vibration mount;
    1(W): an engine mounting block;
    1(W): magneto casing sprung strap;
    1(W): a damaged Merlin exhaust stub;
    1(W3): a split cotter;
    7: fuel pump suppressor casing (from the engine bulkhead);
    60: an intact Merlin exhaust stub;

    M4 (No.28): a propeller blade tip;

    M5: propeller pitch gear;
    M6A: a supercharger clutch shaft bearing;
    M6A: a diffuser part from the Bendix-Stromberg carburettor;
    M6A: oil tank filler locking plates (SS 3704);
    M6B: a split cotter;
    46: a 3-way union from the fuel system in the wing leading edge (3SS 2046);
    48: a crankcase breather;
    49D: an engine sub-frame strut;
    52: an AGS 904H sleeve, probably from the engine bulkhead area; and
    56: a fuel priming pump.

    Wing parts

    11: a piece of rib no.17 (3F/4537 and 11F/3715);
    31: part of the frame for the landing lamps (?);
    45: part of the wing rib for the fuel tank strap attachment;
    57: an attachment bracket for wing rib no.6 or 7 (1SS 3488);
    58: a washer from the flap operating tube on the outer wing trailing edge (7/R2060);
    59: the formation-keeping lamp fairing; and
    63: a gusset plate for the wing rib (no.23) diagonal strut.

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #938538
    BobKat
    Participant

    Planehunters, good luck with your search for the Mosquito. What are you hoping to find? It will be interesting to see what survives of the wooden fuselage. Was it a low-flying fighter-bomber or a high-flying oboe-equipped Pathfinder?

    I have been working on a simple database for our finds. We have many fragments, but about 180 potentially recognisable pieces (some duplicated) of which we have identified about 140. Many thanks to all involved!

    If there are things for you to report back to the forum, or items for Peter to help to identify, I would suggest starting a new thread rather than confuse our two topics – perhaps “Planehunters parts identification” or something similar?

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #941528
    BobKat
    Participant

    Peter, that is brilliant! After I switched off last night, it occurred to me that the other most obvious place to look was at the undercarriage doors, but I am not sure I would have thought of the valance.

    The rivet positions, their number, and the length of our strip, which has fractured just short of the right-hand end, all look right in relation to pictures which I have now found, with the help of your prompting, of FM212 undergoing restoration.

    I think we have a successful outcome – many thanks.

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #941672
    BobKat
    Participant

    Planehunters you have found many examples which seem to be the same as ours, and like me you believe they are stiffeners. All the identified pieces found in the immediate vicinity in location 49 are from the wing or undercarriage, so it would be reasonable to assume it was in that area of the aircraft that it would have been positioned. Another unresolved mystery?

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #941675
    BobKat
    Participant

    I suppose that shouldn’t have been a surprise, Peter. All the diagrams I have seen show right-angled, not rounded, stiffeners. And yet, our piece has the general appearance that might be expected of a stiffener.

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #942009
    BobKat
    Participant

    Item 49

    Thanks for that thought, Peter. I have had a look at a number of pictures, but cannot see anything which gives a close-up to compare with yours. And I haven’t been able to find anything on my Lancaster Explored CD.

    What I had in mind was the stiffeners in the fuel tank access doors – see the picture below with the double row of rivets. The length of the (unseen) stiffeners seems to vary slightly, depending on where they are placed on the door, but they look to be similar to what we have. This would explain why all the pictures I have seen, including those on the planehunters website, seem to be of roughly the same length, where they have snapped off between the joints.

    If we could get a picture of the other side of the door, all would be revealed!!!

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #942262
    BobKat
    Participant

    Item 49

    I have now spent a little time looking through the photographs of items recovered from the crash-sites of Lancasters on the planehunters website. Interestingly, there seem to be no propellers pictured – where did they all go – shattered on impact I suppose? – but quite a few engine parts and an array of fuselage and other pieces. Many thanks for sharing those, Planehunters. Amongst the items found are a number which can be compared with pieces recovered from ED908:

    W5: DF loop mounting brackets;
    W6 (G): bomb crutch (nice to see our identification picture on the website!);
    42: portable oxygen bottle;
    45/50: mechanic’s access step;
    48: crankcase breather;
    56: fuel priming pump; and
    60: Merlin engine exhaust stub.

    And then there are a few of those items at the bottom of our picture 49 which remain a bit of a mystery (post #631). There were also some of these from a Whitley and curiously all seem to have been fractured but are about the same length. It make me think that they might be fuselage stiffeners. These are referred to in the Lancaster Manual as ‘top-hat-section stiffeners’ and seem to be located in the removable access door for the fuel tanks in the bottom surface of the centre plane and outer plane. The description ‘top-hat’ implies a right-angled cross-section, but all the pictures I have seen (including ours) seem to show a more rounded section.

    Any thoughts to share on the fuselage stiffeners please, anyone?

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #942656
    BobKat
    Participant

    Thanks very much for trying, Peter. It looks as if we are back to Renault or Volkswagen!!

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #943853
    BobKat
    Participant

    Peter, glad to hear that our piece may be Rolls-Royce rather than Renault or Volkswagen!!

    I presume the tube you are referring to is the part on the right with the grille above it in the right hand picture of the three alongside each other? If it is not the item I have suggested, let’s hope someone can come up with another possibility.

    Would the internal works of our piece be as might be expected for a valve as described in post #646?

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #944269
    BobKat
    Participant

    Item 12

    Are these any more convincing?

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #944301
    BobKat
    Participant

    Item 12

    Peter, this is where I am floundering. I have a copy of a Rolls Royce Merlin aero engine handbook. In the section dealing with engine controls it says: “The main throttle lever positively operates the magneto control, F, accelerator pump, G, and boost regulator change-overcock, N. A differential operation is incorporated with the main control shafts and allows independent operation of the butterfly throttles by the boost regulator relay…”

    Elsewhere in the handbook there is described the boost regulator “change-over valve” (which I think is the item N referred to above), which I have located on a photograph of the Packard V-1650 version of the engine (see picture). This looks decidedly hopeful. I wonder whether we are getting a little warmer in our search?

    Any further thoughts will be much appreciated.

    ……………

    Having looked again at our pictures, I am not entirely convinced as the metal attached does not seem quite right, but it is difficult to tell from the angle of the photograph. Is there anything else of a similar nature in the engine fittings?

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #945062
    BobKat
    Participant

    A great picture, Peter, spot on – many thanks, and yes, item 31 on the diagram was what I was referring to.

    My research informs me that this Crankcase Breather enabled gases produced by the engine which leaked past the piston rings (known as ‘blow-by’), and which would otherwise build up inside the crankcase, to escape in a controlled manner. The description of the crankcase includes: “An aluminium breather, having suitable holes and oil baffles, is secured by two studs to a hollow extension formed at the left-hand forward end, being in communication with the crankcase interior.”

    There we have it!! Thanks again, Planehunters, without your help this piece would have remained a mystery.

    You have now raised my hopes for a possible identification of our carburettor-like item in picture 12 (post #380). There had been thoughts expressed that this might just as easily be from a Renault or Volkswagen!

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #945755
    BobKat
    Participant

    Peter, I guess the reason the piece could not readily be identified is because it seems to be embedded in the engine casing. There is no doubt that Planehunters has the same piece as ours – both ends appear to be identical – the diamond-shaped flange at one end and the hollow space in the tube at the other. It looks as if we can see where it was located in the engine assembly from Planehunters’ picture, but its function is what remains to be confirmed. Any help on this from anybody to confirm my suggestion (or otherwise) would be much appreciated.

    The casing around our piece must have been shattered by an explosion.

    Planehunters, can you confirm which aircraft your piece came from – was it one of the Lancasters?

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #945917
    BobKat
    Participant

    Having scoured a number of diagrams, thanks to Planehunters’ pictures in post #663, I think I have identified item 48 as the Crankcase breather. Can anyone confirm, please?

    in reply to: Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z) #946049
    BobKat
    Participant

    Planehunters, that is marvellous – thank you very much for solving the mystery of item 48. There had been a number of thoughts that item 12 was from a carburettor, but it did not seem to look like the Bendix-Stromberg. If you have any further thoughts, I will be glad to hear. Thanks again.

    The size of the photos is fine – just click to enlarge!

Viewing 15 posts - 496 through 510 (of 912 total)