BobKatBlueMonkFish,
A slightly belated welcome to the Forum. I had been waiting for ianh to post a reply, but unless he has been in touch by private message, it seems we are both waiting for him to return from his travels?
As you may have gathered from the earlier posts on this thread, I have been conducting a similar exercise to ianh on Lancaster ED908. I have located 7 of the 8 families of the crew – there were 8 on board, instead of the usual 7, because the aircraft was the Oboe leader of the sortie. There is a link to the thread in post #8 above.
I do hope that you manage to make contact with all the other relatives.
ianh,
I don’t know what information you have and what research you or other families have already done, for example by looking at the 101 Sqn Operations Record Books at the National Archives. I am particularly interested to know more about the crash report you refer to. I am aware that the P4(Cas) reports not yet available at Kew can sometimes be found in the service record files of Australian and Canadian crew members. If this is what you have from one of the Australian crew files, I would be very interested to know what details it contains (only in general terms – not the specifics which are personal to your crew). As already mentioned, I have a few snippets from the ED908 report, but not the whole version, from the service file of ED908’s Canadian mid-upper gunner.
Looking at the press reports it seems likely that you have already carried out a substantial amount of background research, but I would be very happy to share my own experiences if this would be helpful – just let me know
BobKatIan H, is your crash report a P4(Cas) report or something different?
BobKatbeachcomber,
It seems that there are a few of us on similar quests. You may be aware that there are Casualty reports prepared by the Air Ministry Casualty Branch and that a report is likely to exist on each of our respective Lancasters. Whether these contain photographs, I do not know. They are shortly to be made available for public inspection at the National Archives, but the transfer is taking some time and the first may not be available until next year. I have the reference number for ED908’s report from the Canadian mid-upper gunner’s personnel file!!
We should keep in touch.
BobKatianh, glad to hear from you – yes I did see the press coverage. Excellent news.
I have your private message, but am about to go out for the rest of the morning. I will reply separately on my return.
BobKatThanks Wyvernfan. You may be interested in the pictures below.
At the top left are two black and white pictures, gratefully acknowledged from “Bases of Bomber Command Then and Now” by Roger A Freeman whose name has already been mentioned a number of times on this thread.
The Building reference numbers mentioned below are taken from the 1944 Little Staughton Airfield Site Plan. The area in question is now part of a small industrial estate.
The first photo shows a Lancaster of 582 Sqn in 1945 on one of the “figure-of-eight” hardstandings with the Photographic Block (#18) visible beneath the fuselage at the left. The tall square-looking building is the Parachute Store (#21) with the end of the Dinghy Shed (#20) just visible in front of it. To the right are the Main Workshops (#22).
The picture underneath was taken from much the same position in around the year 2000. The Photographic Block has disappeared opening up the view towards the Link Trainer Building (#28) and the Squadron & Flight Office (#38) with the Locker & Drying Room (#69) and the Officers Latrine (#36) in the left background. There is a new building in front of the Main Workshops. My photo in 2013 shows that the trees have grown considerably, obscuring some of the buildings, but that the Parachute Store and the Link Trainer Building no longer exist – the remaining buildings still survive and the Officers Latrine still works. I couldn’t help thinking that I was standing where my wife’s uncle must have once stood nearly 70 years ago.
You will recollect that, in response to my request for old photos on the Little Staughton thread, you kindly posted some of yours taken in around 2000, after which I returned to the airfield to have a second look. On the top right is one of your photos with mine underneath, taken earlier this year from much the same position. The top picture looks at the Parachute Store from the opposite direction to that in the earlier pictures: the lower one shows its disappearance from the centre background and a new structure in the left background. The buildings in the foreground are #39 and #40 as detailed in the list attached.
The activity of the industrial estate has resulted in the preservation of some of the buildings, but those no longer in use are falling into a state of disrepair, with a number, sadly, having been demolished in recent years. This is illustrated by the extract from the 1944 Site Plan at the bottom right. The buildings in the central area highlighted in red still exist, some no doubt having been subject to much renovation. Those shown in blue are newly constructed. Those uncoloured no longer exist. Towards the top, the Painters Shop, #47, is the one that has disappeared from my pictures in yesterday’s post – probably some considerable time ago. The old Maintenance Staff Block, #46, is the one at the front right of my photo. Three buildings which I have identified as having been demolished sometime over the period since 2000 are: #21, the Parachute Store already mentioned, #28, the old Link Trainer Building, and #45, the old Armoury Maintenance Unit. The buildings which survive include a number of the distinctively shaped Nissen and the larger Romney buildings, together with several of the so-called “Temporary” brick buildings. It seems inevitable that over time, more of these wartime buildings will disappear. On my second visit to the airfield, a four-hour expedition on foot took me to the Battle Headquarters building near the northern perimeter, to what remains of the Pyro & Incendiary Stores, the Bomb Stores and the Bulk Petrol Installation to the south, along with the Robin hangar and T2 shed to the north-west (I understand these were used by the Pathfinder Mosquito 109 Sqn which shared the airfield with 582 Sqn), and the Control Tower and other buildings in the central area. The Control Tower to the west of the central area (building #92 on the Plan) is now a listed building with planning permission for renovation, but looking very much the worse for wear when I saw it some six months ago.
The photographs of the three locations I have referred to were taken from approximately the positions marked with a green cross on the Site Plan. The pictures in yesterday’s post look southwards from the northern end of the main roadway through the site. The old hardstanding area to the east has disappeared, but its outline is still visible from the air after a dry summer. Details of some of the buildings taken from the Site Plan are shown at the bottom left.
If anyone has any wartime photos of Little Staughton which they would be happy to share, I will to try to match these with the pictures I have taken around the site.
BobKatHerewith a picture of Little Staughton Airfield in 1944 when the USAAF were occupying the base, and in 2013 originally posted on “Little Staughton Airfield – 2009 thread revived”. The building at the front right of the 1944 picture has disappeared, but much else is still recognisable.
BobKatOne year on
It is exactly a year ago today that I started this thread. I had hoped that it would be possible to mark the occasion by posting news of a further find in France, but sadly adverse weather conditions seem to have continued to combine with Laurent’s spare time.
Instead, looking through the list I posted last week, I see that there are one or two items for which I have not posted pictures – including a few which were amongst the early finds, some of which are thought to date back to wartime. The precise location of these discoveries is unknown, but it seems likely that the item pictured at the top left below was found near the place where the main fuselage came to rest. It is one of the four fire extinguisher button covers (AM Reference 21F/388) from the lower right hand side of the main instrument panel as shown in the diagram: at the top right are two pictures showing the complete item for comparison (with acknowledgements to the spitfirespares website). There seem to be a number of different configurations for the instrument panel, and some pictures I have seen show this domed type of button cover also being used for the four engine starter switches at the top of the panel. The Lancaster Manual AP2062A, however, shows these as flat, as pictured at the bottom left with split pin hinges (AM Reference 5C/1267). At the bottom right the domed type cover is shown with its hinged side to the right instead of at the top as depicted in AP2062A.
We can only speculate as to whether this was the cover for the button which may have been pressed in an attempt to extinguish the fire in the port inner engine but, with Remembrance Sunday fresh in our minds, it is perhaps an appropriate time for us to pause for a moment’s reflection on the events of 20 July 1944.
BobKatHere are bombs falling from Lancaster ED908. As I understand it the US bombs are those with the box-style tail fins (the 1,000lb bombs on the left): the British tail fins are circular – as in the three 500lb bombs in the fourth row (one of the four was hung up). In the centre are two 1,000lb bombs, one bomb of each type. Both of these types can be seen in antoni’s pictures above.
BobKatListing of wreckage identified
Here is a full list of what has been identified to date (some things with a greater level of certainty than others!). The photographic reference number for the location in which the pieces have been found is also shown. These numbers are those which I have used, as far as possible, to identify pieces on this thread. The suffix ‘W’ is used to denote items found during the search which was undertaken in 2012 at point no.1 where the fuselage came to rest.
After this list is an index to the posts on this thread where items at each location are referred to. If anyone would like any further information, or spots something I have put in the wrong place, please let me know!
AIRCRAFT
Autopilot servomotor serial number plate (Ref.6H/1030): 1
Brackets for oxygen bottle basket: 1
Brake shoes: 1
Ignition coil connector: 1
P4 compass frame: 1
Parachute D-ring, fasteners and buckle: 1
Pitot head: 1
Serial number plate from Gee receiver R1355 (Ref.10D/13032): 1
Serial number plate from Gee RF unit Type 25 (Ref.10D/1016): 1
Serial number plate from radio power unit (Ref.10K/24): 1
Turnbuckle from bomb carrier crutch: 1
Aerial plug board fitting: 1 (W)
Base of valve from T1154 radio transmitter: 1 (W)
Bomb aimer’s computer setting knob: 1 (W)
Bomb release connector flap: 1 (W)
Electrical parts: 1 (W)
including:
• Silvered mica plates from capacitor
• Beehive insulator
• Fragment from connector (type 5A/31 or similar)
• Glass 5-amp fuse (type 5C2/166 or similar)
Engine mounting block: 1 (W)
Flare strap buckle: 1 (W)/1 (W6)
Magneto casing sprung strap: 1 (W)
Merlin engine exhaust stub: 1 (W)
Pieces of flying control rods, cables and chains: 1 (W)
Pipework connector and valve: 1 (W)/9
Remains of T1154 radio transmitter: 1 (W)
Access plate for formation light terminal: 1 (W3)
Dimmer switch for cockpit lamp: 1 (W3)
Fragment from oxygen economiser cover: 1 (W3)
Merlin engine valve split cotter: 1 (W3)
Segment of altimeter dial: 1 (W3)
Serial number plate from F24 camera film magazine (Ref.14A/730): 1 (W3)
DF loop aerial mountings (Ref.10B/169): 1 (W5)
Access panel locking pin: 1 (W6)
Bomb carrier crutch: 1 (W6)
Parachute pack framework: 1 (W7)
Strap fastener: 1 (W8)
Hydraulic balancer for bomb bay jacks: 2
Part of oil tank drain: 2
Fuel or oil vent pipe connector: 3
Rudder controls inspection panel: 3
Frame for aperture for elevator balance tab connecting rod: 4
Part of elevator balance tab control bar: 4
Ground power socket: 5
Fuel pump suppressor casing (Ref.5C/870): 7
Fuel or oil tank inspection door: 8
Part of outer wing rib no.17 (3F4537 / 11F3715): 11
Brake linings and sprung plates: 12
Bomb hoist point: 14
0.303in ammunition: 15/C
Part of frame above bomb door hinge: 15
Part of hydraulic jack attachment: 15
Part of oil temperature gauge: 15
Piece of Merlin engine oil pipe: 16
Fuselage former: 19
Bomb release hook: 20
Fragment of bomb aimer’s canopy: 20
Part of master compass casing: 20
Spring-loaded plunger for bomb carrier: 20
Priming pump pipe joint: 22
Hydraulic/pneumatic pipe: 24
Fuel pipe stopcock: 25
Ammunition feed ducting: 26
Canopy/cupola metalwork with fragments of perspex: 27
Tip of propeller blade: 28 (M4)
Monica radar junction box and socket (Ref.10AB/288 and 10H/1238): 32
Part of gusset plate for wing rib diagonal strut: 35
Rear fuselage former: 36
Hydraulic/pneumatic pipe: 37
Fragment of tail fin with stringers: 38
Medium pressure 3-way union (2SS 3549) and sleeve AGS 904: 39
Retaining ring from oil filter: 40 (M6)
Dunlop pneumatic brake hose: 41
Merlin engine cam followers (two): M2
Segment of anti-vibration mount: M3
Propeller pitch gear: M3
Propeller pitch gear : M5
Crash axe: ?
Fire extinguisher button cover: ?
Oil pressure gauge scale: ? (D)
Oxygen economiser inlet attachment: ? (D)
CREW EQUIPMENT
Carbon dioxide cylinder and lever (for Mae West life-jacket): 1/1(W6)/16
Pieces of leather, snap fasteners and buckle from flying helmet: W4
Sutton harness buckle and fittings: 1 (W)/W4
Battledress button with RAF insignia: ?
ORDNANCE
250lb Target Indicator casings: 30
OTHER DISTINCTIVE BUT UNIDENTIFIED ITEMS
Part of navigator’s chart plotter?: 1
Rudder mass balance weight?: 1
Perspex fragments with frosted edge: 1, W3
High-tensile steel bolt and other metalwork: 6
Circular (fuel tank?) cap: 9
Fragments of aluminium fuselage: 10, 18, 21, 23
Butterfly valve: 12
Copper piping: 13
Equipment mounting bracket?: 15
Parts of flying controls locking mechanism?: 26, T1
Segment of circular metal plate with flange: 31
Copper rod with capped ends : 33
Instrument parts and serrated wheel: T1, W6
Bearing races?: T3, T4
Pneumatic pipe connectors?: T4
Miscellaneous pieces: T1, T2, T3, T4, W6
Fragment of seat belt harness buckle?: W3
Knurled pieces: W3
UNIDENTIFIED PIECES
Perspex fragment: 17
Miscellaneous fragments: 29
Fragment of hollow metal pipe: 34
Small fragments of metal and Perspex: W1
Small metal fragments: W2
REPORTED WARTIME WRECKAGE NO LONGER EXISTENT
Main fuselage including remains of gun turrets, etc.: 1
Merlin engine (fell in roadway and removed): M1
Undercarriage wheel tyre (rubber used to make shoes): 12
LOCATION POST
1: 1, 4, 11, 43, 125, 189, 307
1(W): 35, 45, 116, 224
1(W1): –
1(W2): –
1(W3): 22, 189, 205, 220, 222, 228
1(W4): –
1(W5): 1, 45
1(W6): 22, 58, 64
1(W7): 30
1(W8): 42
1(W9)/C: –
1(W10)/D: 30
2: 233
3: 74, 315
4: 51, 324
5: 1, 21, 229(2)
6: 337, 340
7: 315
8: 315
9: 1, 350
10: –
11: 229(3), 316
12: 380, 406
13: 337, 340, 350
14: 42
15: 1, 4, 67, 308, 350
16: 30
17: –
18: –
19: 229(1), 252
20: 4
21: –
22: 226, 292
23: –
24: 30, 326
25: 226
26: 30
27: 174, 179
28 (M4): 129
29: 319
30: 75, 78, 92, 95, 106
31: 129, 196, 350
32: 118, 165
33: 118, 350
34: –
35: 319
36: 252
37: 326
38: 273, 281
39: 291, 292
40 (M6): 351, 369, 370
41: 407
M1: wartime report – no picture
M2: 203
M3: 4
M4/28: 129
M5: –
M6/40: 351, 369, 370
BobKatThe search area
As WV-903 pointed out yesterday, this thread has now been running for nearly a year and has received some 32,800 views. The help I have obtained from members of the Forum has been beyond all expectations and I would particularly like to thank Peter, Air Ministry and WV-903 for all their time and patience in the quest to identify items found – not forgetting Derbyhaven who finally identified our much-puzzled-over DF loop aerial mounting, and all those many others who have contributed their thoughts. Hopefully there may yet be more items to be discovered.
I have been somewhat circumspect about publishing Laurent’s plan of where the pieces of wreckage have been found as much of this has been on private property, but Laurent has confirmed to me that there is no objection to my doing so. So here it is. Without reference to it, it would be difficult to put the following comments into context.
A few words of explanation are required. Most of the wreckage has been found along the edge of the forest and in the adjacent fields. There is a significant slope up from the valley to the top of the tree-covered hill on which the V-1 ramp was sited – the contours are sketched on the plan. The events have been described by two eye-witnesses, then in their teens and now in their eighties. It seems that the stricken aircraft passed almost directly over them before turning and plunging to the ground and coming to rest close to the end of the lane into the forest. It was, of course, falling from a height of about 16,000 feet so the precise flight path shown will almost inevitably be approximate. The plan shows that the aircraft came to earth heading back towards the target about half-a-mile away. There is a small elliptical crater, about 2 metres by 1 metre at point B1 where something heavy appears to have fallen in the direction of the arrow.
The location numbers shown are those which I have used, as far as possible, to identify pieces on this thread.
The Beachy Head and Hawkshill Down Oboe Ground Station Operation Record Books for 20 July 1944 report a satisfactory bombing run and successful release. Up to that point, it seems that Jim Foulsham had managed to keep the aircraft steady and on course despite the port inner engine being ablaze. Nevertheless, it was said by one of the eye-witnesses that ED908’s bombs overshot the target and landed in the woods as shown on the right-hand side of the plan. How accurate this recollection is, is difficult to judge, bearing in mind everything else that was happening. The noise and confusion must have been a terrifying experience for a teenage brother and sister standing just a few hundred yards away from where the aircraft crashed. However, without doubt certain images will be fixed in the memory.
The positions of two fallen crew members, presumably thrown from the aircraft, are shown – there would have been no opportunity for the use of parachutes. There is a legend at the bottom of the plan explaining the symbols used.
It can be seen how far the target indicator casings (items 30A, B and C) are from the crash area. The V-1 site is in the direction of the arrow to the left. There must be some doubt, from the position in which it was found, as to whether item 31 was from the aircraft. It seems to be further away from the crash site than might be expected, but if the aircraft was breaking up as it fell, and if, as maybe seems to be the case, the port wing fell somewhere along the eastern edge of the forest, anything could be possible.
The position of the remains of the engine which was said to have fallen in the lane is marked at M1. It is quite some distance from the main fuselage and seems most likely to have been the starboard outer engine, thrown some distance on impact, which might be explained by the aircraft spiralling to earth at an angle while still gyrating. A number of engine pieces – the anti-vibration mount, the cam followers and a propeller pitch gear, were found close to the point where the fuselage came to rest at M2 and M3. It seems probable that these items and other smaller pieces (including two brake shoes) found near point no.1 are from the starboard inner engine and wing which might have remained largely intact and then have been removed from the site with the fuselage.
The tip of a propeller blade was found at M4 (28) and the other pitch gear at M5, and it is near here that the piece from the wing rib next to the outboard engine was found at point no.11. A fuel pump suppressor casing from the fireproof engine bulkhead was found at point no.7. These pieces could have broken away from the starboard wing at the initial impact with the trees of the forest, but it does seem more likely that at least some of these parts were from the port wing, particularly having regard to the discovery of the brake shoes buried at point no.12 some 250 yards from the others found at point no.1. Curiously the flexible brake hose was found at point no. 41, about half-way between the places where the two sets of brake shoes were found. Taken together, these findings are inconsistent with the starboard undercarriage falling to earth at point no.12. It seems far more likely that the parts here are from the port wing which separated from the aircraft after the mid-air explosion.
Only time will tell whether this supposition is correct and if there is a Merlin engine buried in this area of the forest, but Laurent’s search for pieces of the wreckage will continue and I will post further pictures if, as and when, new objects are discovered.
I will post separately a list of the identified wreckage cross referenced to the posts in which the pictures appear. It may be necessary to edit and update this from time to time, particularly if someone is inspired to look again at some of the unidentified pieces!
BobKatMany thanks for your thoughts, WV-903. As you say, it is almost a year since my first post. I have been working on a list of the wreckage that has been identified and linking this to Laurent’s plan. It might be helpful if I post this shortly – I had been waiting for anything else Laurent discovered, but it seems that there may now be a bit of a lull, so now might be a good time to post this to mark and record the help provided by members of the Forum over the last twelve months for which I am most grateful. I will try to complete this in the next day or two.
With regard to your comments about the way in which the aircraft came to earth, interestingly the eye-witness reports that we have suggest that the aircraft in fact broke up along the edge of the forest. There is a big indentation in the ground in one of fields next to the edge of the forest where something hit the ground with considerable force. The picture will be more apparent when I post the plan.
Talking of anniversaries, next July is the 70th anniversary of the loss of this first Oboe Lancaster. On behalf of the families of the crew, I have been in touch for some while with the local commune and the Mairie, and we very much hope that it will be possible for some form of memorial to be erected locally in memory of the crew to ensure that they will not be forgotten.
BobKatI have just heard from Laurent. The weather has been very poor, and with the days shortening, he feels that we may have to wait for Spring before any substantial progress can be made. Quel dommage! However there may be some opportunities for further searches during a bright weekend. Let us hope so.
With Laurent’s agreement, I thought therefore that I would post some pictures illustrating the terrain in which the wreckage has been found. On the left, marked ‘1’, is the main crash site where the fuselage came to rest. The charred earth can still be seen at the lower left where the leaves have been cleared away next to the poppy cross a little below the centre of the photo. At this point, the forest slopes steeply uphill with brambles and bracken amongst the undergrowth.
At the top right, photographed two years ago and marked ‘12’, is the area at the edge of the forest with the fields beyond, where the undercarriage is said to have fallen to earth, and where clearance work has recently been carried out.
At the bottom right, marked ‘30’, is the point in the forest where it starts to level out near the top of the hill and where the Target Indicator casings were found. Here the beech trees damaged by wartime activity have been replaced by conifers.
It can readily be seen from these pictures how difficult it is to find anything hidden in the vast area of the undergrowth without excellent eyesight and a bit of good fortune, with or without a metal detector! Laurent has done remarkably well to find so much which is recognisable as being from the aircraft.
BobKatPeter, you can get a closer look at it by enlarging photo ‘u’ in post #30.
BobKatThanks very much for looking Air Ministry. At least this is not vital, as we know what these two parts are.
Thanks also, WV-903, for your continuing efforts to find any information which might help us to identify anything more Laurent finds.
As for “hang-ups”, it is slightly worrying that there was one due to a faulty carrier which was reported on ED908’s previous mission to Mont Candon on 19 July – see the photo attached. The load was 7 x 1,000lb MC, 4 x 1,000lb GP and 3 x 500lb MC dropped, with 1 x 500lb bomb hung up (a total of 15 carried). I am not sure whether the hang-up was from the middle row (there are only two in the picture, but these appear to be 1,000lb bombs), or possibly from the fourth row where there may have been four loaded abreast and only three are seen tumbling. It is also interesting to note the mixture of round and box-type tail-fins – one of each in the centre row.
It is just possible to make out the distinctive shape of the roads around Hermanville through the cloud – it was thought that the bombing had fallen short. The V1 site was to the left of the picture which needs to be re-orientated to a west-east direction. This was the expected cloud cover wrongly forecast for the following day!
I would have to assume that had there been a hang-up on 20 July, the mid-air explosion or ground impact would most likely have detonated it. As you say, if any there were any such unexploded bomb, it would (I hope) be unlikely to be in the hole created by the undercarriage!
BobKatThanks for the pictures Air Ministry – all is crystal clear! As you say – definitely not our piece. I hope you enjoyed your trip to see ‘Just Jane’.
I am not sure whether your parts listings would include the wheel/brake assembly, but does our flexible brake hose ‘AHO411 579’ feature anywhere?
Another serial number we have is on a piece of the ammunition feed ducting to the rear turret (see item 26, post #30) which is ‘B110691’. It would be interesting to know whether this came from the central or rear part of the fuselage if this number provides an indication of its location. If you have anything which would help, this would be much appreciated.
WV-903 – is there any chance that your information on early pneumatic brake systems, that you were going to post when you had a moment, provides any further information which would be useful to help us identify anything more that Laurent finds from the wheel assembly? Do you have any diagrams?
In the meantime I have heard nothing more from Laurent – I imagine he is waiting for some favourable weather to coincide with his spare time from work!
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