BobKatMany thanks, Peter. I thought I would delay my acknowledgement pending any possible further responses. However – plenty of views, but no more comments!
So it would seem that perhaps my tentative suggestion may have hit the mark, albeit without absolute certainty. The pictures, descriptions and diagrams I have managed to locate leave me in some doubt as to how many of these ribs were in each wing. I can now see that the strengthening gusset plates are on both sides of each stiffener, so the orientation of the angle of the stiffener would be reversed on the two opposite sides of each joint. In other words, any piece found could come from either wing.
In addition to ribs 22 and 23, would there be another on each side of the three fuel tank cavities – so six in all in each wing, for example at ribs 11 and 14 (outboard) and 18 and 22 (intermediate)? Can anyone confirm, please?
BobKatMore fuselage: items 29 and 35
Since my last post four days ago there have been over 200 views, and this thread has reached a milestone, with a total of more than 25,000 views. It is very gratifying to see the popularity of this topic and I hope I will be able to continue to post pictures of interest. However, almost inevitably, the pace of the arrival of new discoveries must be expected to slow as the area to be combed for wreckage widens and the chances of further finds reduce.
After the unexpected success in identifying item 11 – many thanks, Air Ministry – I attach pictures of two more pieces of fuselage which someone may recognise.
The top picture includes some small fragments which can be ignored, but can anybody identify the distinctive ‘cut-out’ rectangular shape and strip of item 29? The photograph shows little detail of the encrusted piece – just its shape as a possibly distinguishing feature. I have no idea at all about this one, so probably a bit of a long shot.
The second item, number 35, pictured from both sides, has a distinctive diagonal pattern to the riveting and a flanged edge on one side. I wonder whether it could be part of the joint of a wing rib diagonal stiffener next to the fuel tank cavity? The riveting patterns I have seen in photographs are not identical, but I suppose some variation might be expected from what was a hand-processing operation, and presumably these would, in any event, vary to some extent depending on the size of the rib and its position in the wing. I have not been able to identify any similar rivet patterns elsewhere on the aircraft from the illustrations in AP 2062A, but does anybody know whether there is anywhere else where something similar might be found? If not, is my suggestion a possibility?
At the foot of the attached picture is another photograph of the port wing of FM104. If item 35 is what I am suggesting, it would most likely be from the starboard wing, with the angle of the inboard side of the diagonal stiffeners (presumably as a mirror image) in the opposite direction from that shown for rib no.22 pictured (which is what our piece seems to have).
Any ideas or comments will, as always, be gratefully received.
BobKatOuter wing
Thanks for your comments on item 11, Peter. The photograph below took a bit of finding – it is a detail from a larger picture and is attached with acknowledgements to the FM104 photo gallery which was produced on the aircraft’s move to storage some while ago. A good opportunity for some unusual views.
The picture of the port wing starts with rib 22 on the left and moves down to rib 14 on the far side of the outboard engine’s position on the right. Rib 17 is located where marked on the near side of the outboard engine position: unfortunately no direct view is available. The dimensions of the wing’s leading edge formers become smaller as the wing tapers, but the view of the end of rib 22 on the left gives a good idea of the general structure. In the same way as other fuselage formers, the edges of the hollow ‘D’ seem to have a rim at right-angles to the flat surface, and this is what, presumably, is depicted in the detail from the diagram of the main plane structure from AP 2062A in the top right corner, and also in the diagram of the outer wing in Air Ministry’s earlier post. It seems likely that the port fittings are mirror images of (rather than identical to) those on the starboard side, but this has not been confirmed.
Unless any further information is forthcoming, this seems to bring the investigation of item 11 to a close. We are unable to establish which wing the piece numbered 3F 4537 came from.
BobKatItem 11: Rib No.17
Air Ministry,
I have been pondering further over this piece over the last day or two and attach a picture. At the top left is the item as pictured in post #229, but positioned vertically and shown from both sides. On the right is an enlarged version of a detail from your diagram with what I assume from your description is the angle, attachment, 11/F.3715, highlighted in red. I have also marked what I assume to be the piece 3/F.4537. At the bottom of the attached picture are photographs of our piece from both sides showing the position of the reference numbers.
I have also looked at the diagrams in AP 2062A. It is not easy to see from these what gives the hollow ‘D’ shaped former on the leading edge its apparent thickness. It seems that the edge may simply be turned at right angles to give rigidity? Or are there two identical connected pieces alongside each other? Could this explain why there is a number ‘3’ on our piece, with maybe another numbered ‘4’ to make up the set on the port and starboard wings? However this is pure speculation.
What I was hoping is that you might be able to provide some description of the part 1/F.4537 from your reference source, and/or of the items numbered 16621/16622, so that I can more easily see how our piece fits into the nose of the rib? Anything more that you do to assist would be very much appreciated.
What has been perplexing me is the angled attachment seen at the bottom edge of our piece in the upper photographs. Or perhaps I have it upside down and it is from the top edge? This can also be seen in slightly enlarged detail from a different angle in the lower two pictures. Is this piece perhaps part of the outer skin of the aircraft?
Is anyone (Peter?) able to confirm how these pieces in the wing’s leading edge were constructed? Does anyone have a photograph showing this? I will see what I can find.
BobKatExcellent news, Peter – a great team effort and when you get her taxiing ‘Just Jane’ will have a Canadian counterpart.
BobKatIdentified items: 3, 7 and 8
Air Ministry,
I have been working on my ‘catalogue’ listing over the last few days and this has brought back to mind three identified items, details of which I have not previously posted but which have some significance to item 11. Pictures are attached. I have assumed that these are all from the starboard wing area and they are:
3. Fuel or oil vent pipe connector
7. Fuel pump suppressor casing (AM ref. 5C/870)
8. Fuel or oil tank inspection door
Item 3 was found near to the main point of impact. Items 7 and 8 were close to each other and were located about half-way between item 3 and the recent item 11 –which are a distance of nearly 200 metres apart on Laurent’s map. All this suggests that the pieces were from the same wing and that item 11 is therefore more likely to be from the starboard wing – the first piece (from the wing’s leading edge) of a number of pieces found in a rough line as the wing broke up.
It occurs to me that, if it is going to be too time-consuming or awkward to copy the page or pages from your document giving details of item 11, then perhaps it would be possible simply to provide me with the narrative describing part 16621 (and 16622) together with parts 1F.4537 (and 2F.4537) and 11F.3715 and their functions? As far as I can see from the diagram you kindly posted, the piece must fit forward of the front spar. The other numbered pieces on the rib (16723 and 16724) seem to run the whole length between the front and rear spars, next to the space for the fuel tank – would this make sense?
BobKatItem No.11
Air Ministry, Laurent has confirmed that our piece definitely has the number ‘3’. So we are left with another little mystery!
BobKatItem No.11
Many thanks, Air Ministry, for spending more of your time on the investigation of this piece, and for the very helpful explanation. No need to apologise – I had thought it would probably be too good to be true that we had found a piece of the port wing!!
We have no idea where the wing landed – an eye-witness report from one of the aircraft flying alongside said that “the wing seemed to take forever before it spiralled down to land some distance away”. By this it was presumably meant that it was some distance from the wood where the aircraft was seen to crash. This piece, No. 11, was found a few hundred yards from where the aircraft came to rest, not far from one of the propeller pitch gears, so it is possible that it could be from the port wing. However, I have to say that it is more likely that it would be from the starboard wing if this broke away from the disintegrating aircraft in the last moments as it fell to earth amongst the trees of the forest.
It is curious, but I suppose not surprising, to note that there are occasional discrepancies on the part numbers. I have asked Laurent if he can confirm the number on the piece – it is too small to read on the photograph I have. It could be that it is distorted and may be a badly formed ‘2’. If it is indeed a ‘3’, then if port-side pieces have odd numbers and the starboard-side even numbers, maybe it could be from the port wing after all. But that is almost certainly just wishful thinking. We will probably never know unless some other numbered parts come to light to provide confirmation one way or the other.
Is there any chance, please, of a copy of the page(s) showing the part number references and descriptions so that I can include this in my ‘catalogue’ of what has been found?
We may have to wait a while for a response from Laurent as this is holiday time in France.
Thanks again for all your trouble.
BobKatAir Ministry,
Could I seek clarification of something you said in your last post – that we had a piece from rib No.17 on the port wing main plane. Unless I have become disorientated, I think the diagram you kindly posted was of the starboard wing?
Do the port and starboard wings have different part numbers for the equivalent pieces – in other words, are they mirror images of each other? And is this why the diagram has two different numbers, one for port and one for starboard for each piece?
Incidentally, I assume you could not locate the other part number, 3F4537, to which the piece is attached?
If we do have a port wing piece, then we have located where the wing that was lost in the mid-air explosion came to earth, but I had better not get too excited in case I have misunderstood what you have said!!
BobKatAir Ministry,
Excellent news – many thanks indeed – two more items identified! I hope you had an enjoyable trip, but I don’t think I will be taking up your offer to fund the next one!!
If we go back to picture #20 in my post #4, there was the spring-loaded plunger sitting next to the bomb release hook, having been found in the same location!
I am very pleased that you have been able to identify the piece of fuselage. I had thought it might have been part of the bomb bay door framework, so many thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Pity about the “mounting bracket”, but it was a bit of a long shot. Its size can be judged by picture #15 in post #4 and comparing it with the .303in ammunition cartridge which is, I think, about 3 inches long. At a rough guess the piece’s shorter dimension probably measures something around 6 inches – so not a large item.
We now await something new from France – no doubt this is becoming increasingly difficult as the search area extends and pieces are more widely scattered.
BobKatAir Ministry,
The absence of responses suggests that I seem to have chosen a bad time for my recent postings. Some while ago, you said that you visited France regularly. If you have been abroad, please let me know if you have found the V-1 site on your travels.
I have just been looking through the thread from its inception. It is marvellous to see what has been achieved with the help of members of the forum. Inevitably there are many unsolved mysteries – most will be lost causes – but I came across item 15 – picture attached for ease of reference – (from post #1 and then followed up in post #67) which had a reference number FAT44. This mounting bracket (if that is what it is?) has such a distinctive shape, and it is something which I had hoped would have been recognised by someone. This is yet another item which might appear in your Spares List and which I would like, please, to add to my earlier requests for your help?
Perhaps you could let me know if your list is available at the National Archives, or whether it is a commercial publication? I imagine, like so many of these things, it is something not easily found. Your continuing interest and help is very much appreciated.
I will look forward to hearing from you, even if it is only to say that nothing appears in the Spares List, so that we can rule that out as a possible source of help.
BobKatianh,
I am assuming the absence of any response to my earlier posts may be because you are away. I don’t know how much experience your people have at identifying wreckage. From the questions you ask, would I be correct in assuming that this is the first Lancaster they have dealt with?
As I have already mentioned, we seem to have a mutual interest in that we are each seeking to identify wreckage from a Lancaster from the same Avro batch. It is interesting that ‘your’ wreckage is scattered over four different locations. Are there parts of the fuselage or only shattered remnants to be found? Or is it too early to say?
It may help if I pass on my experience. The parts of ED908 found do not include the fuselage – the larger remnants were removed from the crash site at around the end of the war. We are faced with a multitude of distorted metal parts of varying shapes and sizes. Some are quite simply unrecognisable, or too small to be of any significance. We have found over 100 pieces of potentially distinguishable items with distinctive features, of which we have identified about seventy.
What I have found most helpful is the photos on the internet of Lancasters which are being/have been restored as these frequently show the inner fabric of the aircraft. The parts lists really only come into play when something is found with a number on it – either an Avro manufacturing mark or an Air Ministry reference number. Without any accompanying illustrations, the lists are not a great deal of help on their own – you will see several examples of this detective work on the ED908 thread. The link is in my earlier post.
Please do get in touch when you are able as I am sure we will have much to share. If you would prefer, send me a private message.
BobKatPart number R3 138 – AT30454
Following on from my last post, this may be another one for you, please, Air Ministry, when you have some time available. More reference numbers appear on this small piece (knob?) which I had assumed might be an electronic part from the radio installation. The photos are not of the best quality, but probably show enough from three angles to assist identification. I originally referred to this in post #4.
Having recently established that ‘R3’ is an Avro marking, it seems that my first thought may have been mistaken, as this seems to be an Avro part, and therefore presumably not produced by a radio manufacturer?
The markings are: R3 138 and AT30454. Could this be something else in the Spares List?
BobKatianh,
It has occurred to me since my message yesterday that you might also find it useful to have a copy of AP 2062A & C, the Official Air Publication for the Lancaster Mk.I and III. This does not list all the parts but provides many diagrams. I have found it an invaluable tool in my own researches.
This is found in a publication entitled “The Lancaster Manual” in the RAF Museum series which is currently available on Amazon and probably elsewhere. The bottom price quoted is a little more than I paid for mine.
ED328 comes from the same Avro batch as ED908 so we are both likely to be looking at similar items.
BobKatAir Ministry,
Our recent dialogue has brought something back to mind. There is a piece of aluminium metal which has been found which has two reference numbers on the opposite sides which have been riveted together. These are: 3F 4537 and 11F 3715.
These seem to be of the same style as those which you kindly located in your Spares List.
I wonder whether I could prevail upon you to have a look, when you have a moment to spare, to see if these numbers appear in the List and, if so, whether this might help us to identify the fragment?
There is a picture with post #229.
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