George J………..Another interesting thing I was thinking of yesterday. 2-3 years back India revelead details of its EW efforts, including a local jamming pod……..Question is, will MKI carry these pods, which should make them more capable than regular In. AF Sukhois with ELTA SPJ and what details can you offer about MKI current EW capability?
There was a very good discussion on AFM (and you have no idea how hard it is for me say “very good discussion” and “AFM” in the same sentence) about the SIVA POD and some other EW stuff on the MKI. It will come up if you google for “Siva + MKI + Krypton”.
I believe its now flight qualified for MKI and donno bout production.
Children:
Not that there is any more point splitting hairs, but here is the original “Chest Thumping” reference
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1128/p01s04-wosc.html
Again, it would be very illuminating if you can show us a reference prior to 11/28/05 from an Indian source that talks about “Chest Thumping”.
Really, between the “unofficial” retorts and open source fact check what is really left in that talk that is really correct???
George JThere is no such user name and apparently never was at YouTube. I searched Google, Altavista, Yahoo and didn’t turn up a single hit.
You need to search with the right keywords.
Enter “Briefing on the SU-30 MKI, Part 1.” into your search box, the very first hit you will get is the link to YouTube, click on cached and scroll all the way down you will find the following:
From: FighterFlight62
Added: October 05, 2008
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Briefing on the SU-30 MKI, Part 1.
Briefing on the SU-30 MKI, Part 1.
Category: Science & Technology
Tags:
Daedalian Daedalians SU-30 MKI F-22 Raptor Nellis AFB Red Flag Mountain Home
This is the video we saw on 11/2/08 9 am PST and the first the videos were removed and then the account itself was deleted less than an hour.
This is where we figured out that WHERE it was presented: Order of Daedalian meeting.
George JGood God man have you ever even seen a SU-30MKI fly? ………….
Umm are you serious? You are seriously trying to retort the points made in the second email? Coz if you were joking you should be using emoticons or something.
George JFrom someone who knows a lot more than I do…………off course you are absolutely free to disregard every word of it since there is a no flashy youtube video to back it up…its only words (which I could have made up…although by now you know this is not how I post).
1. To say the USAF had the better of the IAF in 1vs1 needs to be substantiated. Since all exercises were with ACMI maybe the USAF would like to substantiate this claim of ‘drilling brains out’ and ‘we dominated’ with ACMI recordings.2. The USAF had similar number of fratricide during the exercise as the IAF. Considering they are fully networked with datalink, IFF Mode 4 etc. which is a greater cause of concern? IAF fratricides or USAF fratricides?
3. The behaviour of the MKI in thrust vectoring is incorrectly described. Maybe someone who has actually flown against the MKI can do better justice, provided it’s an honest and unbiased assessment.
4. The IAF sustained operations 20,000 km away from home and had the least dropout rate. Prudence demands that safety procedures be adopted to enhance operations; could the engine operations be viewed against this backdrop?
5. Now consider this; the inexperienced IAF aircrew adapted so beautifully to the environment (that was totally alien), training rules (that were significantly different from IAF’s), airspace regulations etc in a short span of two weeks, and yet somehow they were unable to exploit the jet in its envelope (something that they have been practicing to do for four to five years ) – does it sound convincing? If youngsters can adapt to new rules and environment in a short span of time, its only because they are extremely comfortable and confident of the machine and not otherwise. Also let’s not forget that this was the not the first outing of the IAF against the F-15 and F-16s. They have flown against these ac in the past and are aware of their capabilities. So doesn’t sound convincing at all.
Please don’t ask who/what/when/where/why, once the video went public everyone and their uncle is watching it. There is always two sides to a story, perhaps this is the other. Nuff said.
George Jjdsgn:
You need to get with the program. If you want to be relevant AT LEAST watch the part that I have indicated. From 7:05-7:38 of part 1 he is clearly talking about the 1-1 engagement and complete with Hand Gestures (“looking at the rear end of the airplane the thrust moves like this (V gesture)”)
The problem is that not how the operate in flight, see the video I posted. If you still think its ONLY operating in way he is pointing…..I cant really argue with your delusions.
George JGood God man, that IS a “V“!!!The speaker even said that the nozzles could be & WERE used independently.
Its really an X not a V.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuNd8tKm0UA
You can see it in action from 0.35 to 0.50 min if that looks like a V then we have reached new depths on AFM.
Off course you can argue its not an Indian video so Indian MKI can only do an V coz we have a YouTube video where a bonafide F-15 pilot said so (and he does so complete with hand gestures from 7:05-7:38.
George JA think you guys seem to forget is that if a F-15, -22, or -35 gets into a dogfight while in a real combat operation, something most likely went very wrong at one point…….TVC is something nice to have, but you hope not having to use it. At this point, I’d say is good for airshows.
The same applies to the MKI too, it does not go into combat with just an ACMI pod nor does it radiate in training mode all the time. The IAF also hopes to reach out and touch all bandits with an RVV-AE before they get a chance to reply back.
Now even if does get into a knife fight it will be with a lot more than ACMI pod so while the “selective facts” folks on AFM rejoice about the “drill his brains out part” there is enough and more evidence the speaker has no clue about what would happen if there was a CCM on its wingtips…and the MKI was “falling out of the sky” with its nose pointed “somewhat in the FOV” where the R-73, OLS-30 and Sura sees what the pilot see. (off course its mere fanboi conjecture…after all we know from the Video MKI don’t fly in “combat” with anything more than ACMI pods…..well maybe Litening but nothing more)
Which bring us back to the question…has any US pilot ever encountered an R-73 in combat? Did all those Mig-21/25/29 in ODS ever fire back ?
George JAll he said was that the nozzles move in the V plane. I do not recall him stating anywhere that the two can not move independent of each other. In addition, he may not have stated a lot of other things about the nozzle movement patterns but that was beyond the scope of the discussion. As i said, this was not a maths or a robotics lecture or even a discussion on TVC…….Now he did get the engine and radar manufacturers wrong. But better to focus on what the pilot is good at, ie flight performance, rather then which company makes what.
That what I have been saying you can pick and choose what you think is the truth from his factually inaccurate talk, if you have made up your mind that he is right then no one can convince you otherwise and the TVC does operate in a V.
Like I state before: It only proves that in training mode-clean config with no R-73/HMS the MKI might give an F-15 an opportunity to “drill his brains” out. But then you also have to believe that when the MKI goes to combat it will only carry an ACMI pod too and nothing else. If I believe him on the “drill his brains out part” I have to believe him on latter part too.
George JIn the Ethiopia-Eritrean combat, even that all-powerful Su-27 with R-73 was using guns when it got in close. There is not yet an adequate substitute for the knife fight situation.
Logan Hartke
Therefore, on the morning of 25 February four MiG-29s were sent to intercept two Su-27s which were patrolling along the front-lines at Badme. Both Sukhois, flown by Ethiopian pilots, detected the appearance of their opponents in time and attempted to disengage, when – all of a sudden – they came under an attack by several R-27/AA-10 missiles. None of the weapons fired by the Eritreans – which were meanwhile inside the Ethiopian airspace – hit, but after evading them, the Ethiopians decided to turn back and fight. The lead, Maj. Workneh, acquired the enemy and fired what was reported as a “salvo” of R-27s, targeting one MiG-29 after the other. However, all the missiles missed and the only result was that the Eritreans were forced to break their attack – only to be pounced by the faster Su-27s. The result of following dog-fight was one Eritrean MiG-29 shot down, probably by an R-73/AA-11 IR-homing, short range air-to-air missile (fired again by Maj. Workneh).
There is one more reference to an R-73 shot later on the same page. If you ask me R-27 is the dud and the R-73 really works and perhaps thats why the Indian simulated the R-27 (with the radar in training mode) and NEVER showed up with the R-73.
George J
This is how they move the FBW will control the direction of the movement but they are NOT restricted to a “V”. You can have one nozzle go up and the other one go down if the FBW want it to in a corkscrew.
see more pics here:
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html
The nozzles default state at rest is a drooping inwards in a V. But their default state when the engines turn on is dead center. This is also the the position they assume if the TVC hydraulics fail.
Now it is VERY hard to believe that a F-15 aggressor pilot who has “vast experience” in combat and has been tasked to “emulate” aggressor tactics would be so misinformed. After all its in Janes (not your 1999 but more recent).
George JWhat can the mods do? Hang you for your inaccurate analogies? Hang the pilot for trying to impress a crowd of Daedalians who don’t care if he says Tolstoy or Tumansky and believe him when he says the Kopyo-21 is Israeli and everything in between?
Think about it:
If he had actually NOT spouted the BS that he did there would be NOTHING that we supposed “jealous children” could dispute. But he had to qualify that he knows a lot and that’s what did him in.
Oh oh..here is another one:
Its like me being a “jealous child” who just found out that his father who is fighting with his one hand tied behind his back lost to your dad had body armors and even four sticks. And your dad says that my dad was wearing Nike Pump shoes that didn’t help him one bit. Get it Nike Pumps???
George J……………. Face it kid, your beloved flanker wasn’t anywhere near as good as you thought it was, your behaviour is rather like that of a jealous child who found out his mates bike is better then his own bike, pathetic to be honest.
Well that not the correct analogy. What you should be saying is that I am the “jealous child” who found out that his mate (who happens to be a competition BMX biker) claims HIS bike is better coz when he rode my bike which I had intentionally disabled, and HIS bike came out tops….and he says a lot about my bike that contradicts whats actually in the sales brochure which he himself says contains everything he is talking about.
Get the picture???
George JAnyway you in your superior wisdom of course know far better then a USAF Red Flag Agressor pilot yeah? So what if he gets the name of a frigin engine wrong, he’s not some nerd who sits there reading Janes all day memorising the amount ……..Seriously kid your making yourself look mighty mighty stupid in this thread, I’d give up if I were you before you get a rep like *49 has, if its not to late that is.
Eh for someone with a Join Date of 11/6/08 you sure think you know a lot bout how it works around here.
He may be an aggressor pilot who does say that TVC on the MKI work on a “V” but that does not make it so does it? I may be the nerd that know that it works in a cruciform 15/32 deg axis but then what do I know, it might be only working in a V coz after all he said so.
If he was not memorizing Janes why did he bother to tell the crowd to look up stuff he said in Jane, and WHERE can you find such brilliance in Janes???!!!
Like I said before…shooo I m done with your babbling. Face it he really does not know what he is talking about, but if you want to believe him I cant stop you can I?
Logan:
Its funny you mentioned veteran, I once spoke to an MKI driver who told me that with the R-73-Sura and TVC it pretty much comes close to perfection. Now I am sure he is not part of an organization that tries to pick fights all over the world so he does not have the combat experience of the F-15 jock but going by the patches he had on his arms it looks like there would be very few people who can question him about what he said about the MKI. I would not trust his knowledge bout an F-15 but if he said something that can be verified I certainly would.
So even if this jock does not know a Tumansky from a Tolstoy he should know enough that the TVC don’t operate in a V. He was pretty smug about the fact that the MKI was operating clean with ACMI but he should also know that he was NOT simulating his R-73 (he needs a seeker head it was obvious it was not there). So while the F-15 was flying in “combat mode” (his words) with 4 missiles and drop tanks the MKI did not even make an effort.
But wait since you believe him then the MKI MUST be going into combat with all stations empty and only an ACMI pod (his words again and you will find pics of this). After all he is a Red Flag pilot and he is on YouTube.
Which reminds me the MTF AFB F-15 pics show an AIM-9X, so he goes into a knife fight and does not use his AIM-9X and switches to guns? SO that must mean the Guns >>> AIM-9X. After all he said they used Guns.
George JI think you should be asking yourself that very question Son.
Coz he is not right on the stuff we know…so how can he be right on the stuff we donno. Now shoo………….
George JWhats “informative” ? that the AL-31 FP Tumansky does not have a FOD mesh, that the Bison fly Israeli radars? That the TVC are a V? You cant pick and choose what this guy is saying. You have to either accept everything or disbelieve everything. The Daedalians sure lapped up everything he said. If he is wrong on the “details” how can you trust his detailed conclusion.
If he is an aggressor sqd guy it is his JOB to know as much bout the a/c he will fly against (or at least as much as Janes). This is like having a world famous surgeon say that the human being has four stomachs. Makes you wonder what he is “world famous” for?
Off course there are enough and more oracles on this forum who are itching for something like this and for them this is manna from heaven. There is a YouTube video and now mainstream media are reporting it, so it MUST be the true. How can he be wrong?
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