George JSameer bhai, the last I checked even the most ‘powerful democracy in the world’ has to resort to some cheap tricks in order to get a few good men…it not about incentives and perks its about personal preferences and expectations……there aint nothing that IAF or GOI can do about it.
IAF would gladly go for the Rafale if it had the money for 126 of them…but it does not….we have to optimize money and manpower…and 126 M2K fit in nicely….
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George J……..nothing is beyound India’s financial reach ( the economy is one of the world’s fastest growing now, this is nt the India of the 80s and early 90s anymore), it al depends on the threat perception of the region……..IAF may simply be sticking to the Mirage because they do not wish to see yet another 5 year wait for the bureaucrats to again figure out what fighter suits India best. In my opinion they should cancel the m2k-5 deal alltogether, increase MKI numbers to 220, upgrade the MiG-29s, buy as many used Mirages as possible (in good condition) and begin the big bucks investment in the PAK-FA but unfortunately I fear that the leaders of my country are too shortsighted…………
All the money in the world cant get India to recruit more pilots….MKI’s needs 2 pilots and 2 WSO/pilots while the M2K only needs 2 pilots. Besides single engine A/C are much easier to maintain than a twin engine behemoth.
IAF knows exactly what it can do…what it can afford and where it sees the world going….M2K fits in nicely with that. IAF knows better than you and me about what M2K can do …the Mig-29 can do…and what the limits of each airframe is…..M2K makes a lot of sense in the brave new data linked network centric world……
The MRCA will NOT affect the the development of future heavies (PAK-FA/MCA etc)…the only thing that will affect that is the economy…..
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George JOk now I am a bit more confused….
I thought that you detected BEFORE you track. If you radar can detect 1 m^2 target at 250 kms against ground clutter then more power to you….but unless you interrogate what you are detecting its not even a track right? So if you read the Russian translation of the NIIP page it says:
Distance of aquisition for a fighter, is not less than:
– in the head-on courses: 120-140km
– in the overtaking courses: 60km
Unless there is a translation mistake ‘acquisition’ = ‘tracking’ and NOT detection. If you acquire a fighter then you have IFF’ed it as a hostile track and are computing a firing solution and are zimbly waiting to act.
Finally NIIP says “not less than” so I guess 120-140 km is the lower bound, so unless someone can get the upper bound for the N011M it really a wild goose chase.
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George J………….tha apg-77 is in a league of its own…it detects im^2 targets at clsoe to 250km’s as compared to the 120km for the N011m and the apg-80…
Finally some info on the AGP-77 detection range……250kms is really cool…..some source for this info would be nice.
Detect before track. So detecting at 250kms aint that great shakes…is it?
From Vaya’s MKI page:
For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 air targets and engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously (this capability was introduced in the Indian RC1 and RC2).
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George JThe K’s didnt fly non-stop, they did stop over in Jyanklis,Egypt even though they had AAR.
Also I dont think the No.24 boys have to fly to France to ‘wet their pants’, they have been happily wetting their pants in the service of the country and the MKI programs for a long long time……all those AL-31Fs were not sacrificed in vein.
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George JMy dear friend I dont have any username for BRF because I havent registered myself over there … and the problem I am facing while accessing the site is
probably due to some damn spyware 😡
Make sure you are going the right site!!! A few months ago BR was infested with Chinese hackers and if you clicked on certain links on the forum it would take you to “bharat-rakshek.com*” instead of “bharat-rakshak.com” and some sorta trojan tries to infliterate you computer.
I have no problem accessing BR…you need to use firefox and not IE (thats where the trojan problem comes in).
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* before I am deemed to be trolling about chinese hackers…it behooves you to check out where and to whom “bharat-rakshek.com” is registered to.
George JWhat are your handles on BRF? I’ll tell you mine if you tell me yours. :dev2:
George JPaul:
This is from AeroIndia 2005 and is from the HAL Display (and is also a part of the Mig-27 upgrade program). Perhaps Harry can chime in on what he saw and photographed. So I guess they decided to go with the EL-OP HUD to maintain commonality and logistics.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/images/MiG27-HUDMFD.jpg
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George JIt took someone on this board 10 seconds to post pics of the RC1 and 2 :-). Since you are the original oracle it should take you less than that to find it. Oh wait now that you are back (not having learnt anything in your hiatus)…even if you find it (or someone takes the pains to post it) you will say …how do you know they are not black boxes with holes made up by some south asian airforce??? :diablo:
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George JSo what’s India’s contribution to the indo-israeli-french avionics combo for the MKI….India despite its highly advanced technological base can’t even put together a local HUD, now thats pitiful….
What are you the new avatar of the Oracle? The MKI was never meant to have the Indian HUD. The Indian HUD is under development for the LCA PV-2 (according to the an article published by the mod of this very forum). What makes you think make all the funky sensor inputs (radar/IRST/ECM/RWR/Stores) work? Indian RC and MC. You dont think that good enough?
The El-Op Su 967 has 28x ? FOV compared to the VEH-3022 holographic HUD (on the Rafale) which has 30×22 FOV. I couldnt even find anything on the VEH 3000…anyone have links it? Or about the VEM 130/VE 130 HUD?
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George JAll the track and engage # come to nought on a one on one comparison….It is my totally biased opinion that MKI will take the Rafale-B hands down in BVR and WVR. Sure MKI is big…but does the RBE2 truly outrage the monster BARS? I would certainly like to know. Does the RBE2 really allow Rafale-B to engage the MKI before the MKI can engage the Rafale? That too would be nice to know. Does spectra outperform the EL/M-8222 + Tarang, I donno…but I dont think anyone here can answer that on here with lots of suppositions. For that matter no one in either AF can answer such a question..coz they only truly know their a/c really well but know nothing about what the potential adversary has or can do.
I donno how people can conclude which a/c is a better fighter with so many unknown…the true answer is NO ONE KNOWS>
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George J…….Don’t forget, Saturn NPO is the engine DESIGNER, there is a rival engine from engine MANUFACTURER Salyut – the AL-31F-M1 with TVC which has been fitted to the Gromov LII Su-27 – bort number 595…….
So I am guessing a LOT of water has flown under the bridge since this:
What are the plans of further advancing Saturn? Do you intend to merge with the Ufa Motor-Building Production Association (UMPO)?
The Ufa Motor-Building Production Association is a very solid big plant that independently manufactures AL-31 engines and their modifications. We cooperate with Ufa on a number of promising programs, including the development, of a new engine. The Ufa plant is a very important partner. There is a possibility that at the next stage of its development Saturn will form an integrated entity involving UMPO. We are now holding talks with UMPO and that is no secret, it has been reported by the press. The negotiating process, a fairly complicated one, is under way. It may be that a single company will be set up with a common share and common board of directors and management. I don’t see insurmountable obstacles to that.
How do you see the future of the Moscow Salyut engine plant?
Salyut is a state unitary enterprise and the government should decide about its future. But I personally cannot understand why a plant that does not have its own design bureau is wasting money from state coffers on developing projects it never engaged in before. Salyut is a plant making engines serially. Nothing serious will come of this without uniting with a design bureau, even if Salyut brings together 200, 300 or 500 designers, provides them with computer hardware and software. No matter how loudly Salyut PR people may be speaking to the opposite.
But there are reports that Salyut is upgrading the AL-31F engine and has developed a thrust of up to 14.5 tonnes.
As far as I know nobody has given Salyut a request for proposal for upgrading AL-31F. Likewise anyone may start developing, say, an engine for a flight to the Moon. Engines are not upgraded that way. In order to launch the upgrading of an aircraft engine, a government commission led by representatives of the Air Force and consisting of designers of the aircraft in which the engines are installed has to work for a year. For instance, aircraft of the Su-27 family. Besides, Salyut has not developed anything so far: it only started engines with a well-known fan modification. But aircraft engines should be started in absolutely different conditions, not somewhere behind the screen at night. As for the 14.5 tonne thrust, it was achieved already ten years ago. Therefore, Salyut activities can be called only unjustifiably amateurish. I want to repeat that Salyut will be unable to develop anything serious without a professional design bureau. It lacks the necessary specialists. There are only three-four designers left in this country today who can develop or upgrade an engine. And they don’t work for Salyut.
Besides, the contract and RFP for upgrading AL-31F have gone to Saturn, having a powerful design bureau and capability of fulfilling the task most effectively.
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George JFrom Moscow Defence Brief 2001 #6, interview with Yuri Lastochkin, General Director of Saturn NPO:
What can you say about the state of AL-41 engine for advanced combat aircraft systems?
Combat aviation is facing a huge number of tasks. As a result, combat systems are becoming very complex and multifunctional. Our strike aircraft systems are heavier than in the West. They are not worse, but our radars are heavier, our avionics is heavier. There is a whole family of AL-41 engines with varying lengths of service life. Correspondingly, this weight requires guar*anteed additional thrust. We are trying to reach this objective in our work on AL-41.
Saturn is the only entity in Russia today devel*oping such an engine. It has been flight-tested on the 1.44 aircraft developed at the MiG de*sign bureau. A comprehensive program has been mapped out. An engine with thrust vectoring capability, a new fan and thrust of 14.5 tones will be assembled on the basis of AL-31FP this year.
Saturn is taking part in the work at orders from the Defense Ministry. The facility in Rybinsk will manufacture test samples of the fifth gen*eration engine and correspondingly adopt new technologies on a mass scale. According to plan, the core assembly facility will also be located there. One engine costs over $3 million. It takes 3 to 5 years to launch its production. This is a very big and important job.
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George JWhat year was issue no. 44 published?
AL-41 is derived from the -31FP right?
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