George JA question!
Does anyone know the total number of Mig-21s (all variants) that were procured for IAF either directly from foreign sources or HAL, and how many have been lost in accidents?
Thanks in advance!
If you want variant specific info you might have to query Jagan’s website and further analyse it based on substrings attached the Mig-2: F, PF, M, FM, FL, U, Bis and Bison. You will have to impute the missing varaints based on combining info about the sqd, AFB and the possible variants associated with them at that time. Or you could simply use some advanced categorical missing data analysis techniques (Marko Chain Montecarlo methods) and you should come up with the best variant wise break up avaiable from open source. And then you have to reconcile with the fact that warbirdsofindia is the best open source info about this stuff and it too acknowledges having only accounted for 163 of the possible 315 crashes.
Also its is possible to know WHEN the first HAL Fishbed joined the force but for you know if the crash was a HAL or MAPO Fishbed would need either the sr. no. (again categorical data) or some sort of a propensity score for a crash being a HAL or MAPO at any given point in time.
In short its very difficult to guesstimate even with avilable data. The only source that can give you this info is IAF and they are not going to give you a variant and mfg wise breakup for obvious reasons.
George JWhy does the IN need a whole frigging satellite for ‘networking its fleet’ thats like a couple of transponders on the INSAT!!! I think there is more that meets the eye on this issue. There is some piece of information thats not being revealed here. Either they want something that cant be done by ISRO in a finite time frame. E.G wanting to launch a Geo-Sync comm sat yesterday when the entire GSLV program itself in an advanced stage of development. And that ‘techincally’ is a No. But that again would open up more q’s like why not do a GTO with PSLV payload? its been done before…. unless the payload that the IN wants is too heavy for a PSLV GTO.
There are too many loose ends here….I too agree ISRO wont say no….they can ALWAYS launch another ‘communication satellite to meet India’s burgeoning communication needs’….no one needs to know that this bird is handling only IN’s ‘burgeoning communication needs’.
It could be also that the IN wants its on GeoSat but only want to pay peanuts for it. But then again IN does not do that…only IA has that disease. 🙂
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George JGosh…hot topics here….
Its going to be good living here. I have lots of questions for our counterparts. I suggest opening a thread to talk about it. What say guys? Topic related to infiltration and the real problem….it will give us a chance to implement ‘Talks’ in line with our governments thought process and get a chance to know what the other side thinks and what their opinions are.
Thats not gonna work here. Every side knows that its right and the other side is wrong.
George JHmm if the 20 moves and a new sqd comes up, that will give me another reason to visit Lohegaon…..for the third time. 😉
George JWith BR down you need to find other places to get your fix 😉 . So the last 10 are indeed on their way. I am really happy that the contract is finally getting over. I wonder where these ‘non existant’ planes are gonna go. Lohegaon is getting pretty crowded.
George JI think the crash of even one Mirage is taking seriously (for obvious reasons). I dont buy the ground crew theory. This whole M2K crashing phenom is too new and too frequent to be attributed to the grounds crew slacking off. Its like an anamoloy: 19 years of near perfect service and suddenly they seem to be falling out of the sky. The grounds crew would not develop amnesia/lethargy after 19 years. There might be other issues that are not being discussed. Like, how close to the end of its TTL were the crashed planes? Were there structural flaws that OEM did not know about? Is there a change in SOP for maintainance in the last say 6 months thats causing them.
Also I dont fully buy the sabotage bogey, there are other more precious assets to go after and I dont think that Gwalior (with TACDE and all) will be a less well guarded based compared to others. All bases have pretty good security.
George JUmm once again…what is this Su-37 everyone keeps talking about? Bort 711 crashed on Dec 19th, 2002. Right? 712 is an Su-35!!!
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George JHarry,
Is there a pic of the MKI with 8222? The whole plane rather than the close up? Do you know the Sr. # of the a/c sporting ECM pod. Thats more important that the pic itself since that tells you a lot about ‘program’ status…based on whats available on the PAC report too.
George JThey use IAI Ehud ACMI system.
George JOrange jump suits are worn my the the maritime flyboys. Like the boys from No.6 Jags are orange but the boys from No.20 MKI are darkblue. Both are based in the same AFB 100 meters from each other.
George JOMG….you are trying to say that the Comptroller and Auditor General of an DEMOCRACTIC country who is independent of the the Govt in power and answerable to the PARLIAMENT is NOT reliable????
You sure??? Ok if you say so you are the oracle….a perfect example of what high quality madrassa mathematics can produce. 😀
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George JHoly Crap the Oracle has englightened us again….fear you who DIDNT PAY for the development of the MKI. Damn ye CAG (Comptroller and Auditor General of India is the agency similar to the US GAO: audits govt spending) which has the audacity to go AGINST the great oracle:
From the CAG 2001 AUDIT of the Su-30MK program:
In the meantime, pending finalisation of the main contract, the CCPA approved an advance payment of US $ 142 million, equivalent to Rs 498? crore to the manufacturer in April 1996, specially to finance the development of SU-30 aircraft as the manufacturer lacked finances.
Its funny how the development of the MKI and Indian $142 millions seem to all happen in 1996. Oh well….
A thousand apologies to the great oracle for trying to correct your ignorance..oops i mean half baked knowledge ………again. :diablo:
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George JHoly Moly…I leave you guys alone for 24 hrs and you have pushed this semantics thread to 2 extra pages??? I need to open a mirror window of this thread to be able to phrase my reply.
To sum up the battle of the semantics till now:
1) Crobato claims that MKK and MKI can lift 38T (specifically max fuel/payload) an 34 T coz Fomin and other brochures say so.
2) MKK 38.8T is listed as LIMT TOW which has been acknowledge by Crobato as NON-routine…like when you need bomb the heck out of Guam…and thats not considered RARE in chinese paralance??? Its defacto MTOW is only 500 kgs more than the whats listed for the MKI.
3) But hold on to your panties…there have been two separte references “in public” where the MKI has been quoted to be a 38T and one coming from the ACM’s mouth. Crobato thinks the ACM/IAF does not know what he is talking about …quip…misquote…typo. Also contends (perhaps due to poor comprehension of english) that the two references are the same. Its proved its not so…but that fact does not seem to percolate. And the fact still stand that IAPO and Fomin do not say the MKI has a ‘LIMIT’ TO like the MKK.
4) So either the Indians are making a mountain out of a mole hill by claiming that indeed the MKI is max fuel/max payload capable (38T), or IAPO does not think that the MKI ‘limit’ TO capability is paractical enuf feature to highlight, or the KNaapo is search for something to make the MKK look good that is has to had a triple asterix footnote to justify a LIMIT 38.8T lift.
5) Oh…somewhere in there to add more noise to the discussion you have elements of HAL NOT making the MKI but assembling it….when the same IAPO page that is used to shove down the 34T (wait a min the FACTORY WEBSITE claims 34.5 MTOW for the MK??? so what does that mean now???) says:
The Su-3MKI’s canards, stabilizers, and underboom fins will be manufactured by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Indian leading aircraft manufacturer, according to the Agreement signed between IRKUT and HAL in 2003. The empennage units, manufactured by HAL will be mounted at Irkutsk Aviation Plant on the Su-30MKI, which will be delivered to the Indian Air Force and other customers.
Now for those of you with poor english comprehension, that means that EVERY SINGLE MKI thats been handed over to India has Indian made OEM control surfaces. Which other sources have listed to be made of composites. But then again nothing in this world is better than the PLAAF MKK.
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George JNo, Jai’s article is quoting the same event as yours. Furthermore, it comes two months after the same event.
Jai’s quote: AeroIndia 2003 (Feb, 2003) talks about Wing. Co. Jamwal doing arial demonstration with the MKI. Says 39T for MKI (which you dont wanna believe) and 27T for AN-32 which you can verify on your own.
Harry’s quote: Comes from ACM Krishnaswamy talking PRIMARILY about the Hawk AJT. “Talking to reporters on the sidelines of a two-day seminar on “Aerospace Technology Challenges in the Millennium”…..”. In Dec 2003. Once again he says 38T and you dont think he knows what he is talking about.
I understand that english may not be your forte. But since you seem to read and respond adequately to questions in english, it would behoove you to READ the two articles use your comprehension skills to decide if they are BOTH referring to the same event and time line.
If you still have the same conviction about the two abovementioned events then ………….
Where is the factory document information OF EVERY OTHER Su-30 that has a 38.8MT? Huh tell me where.
Actually its interesting that you say that Indian thought the radar to be N-109 when it was indeed N-019. So does that mean 38T is 83T or 3.8T….N-109 is typo and so would 3.8T or 83T, but 38T??? Like you said ACM of the IAF is talking through his hat.
So finally you agree that MTOW for the MKK is INDEED 34.5T and that 38.8T is only for the rarest of the rare circumstances. If its used routinely it will certainly lead to structural failure. So the defacto is 34.5T which is pretty close to MKI defacto of 34T.
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George JWonderful pics…reminds me of the Su-27 prototypes flying with the AL-21 engines before the AL-31F come out. But that does not mean diddly squat as far as this MTOW discussion is concerned: rememeber we are talking about PLAAF sound bites on the MKK (I have seen the propaganda pics).
I can show you pics of the Su-30 MOCK UP with Brahmos that does not mean much to this debate. I can show you RVV-AE on the MKI during the induction but you can show me the Kh-59 (?) being test fired. Does that prove that the MKI does have AGM and the MKK does not have AAM???
Jai’s reference* is from AI03 in NewIndia press (Feb 2003) and Harry’s from Hindu is from Dec 2003. And then you wonder why I have to equate you to Yahoo25. So only Indians seem to have the problem re-quoting similar #.
I am still not sure how pics of a pavilion in a def expo explain away the ‘mis quotes’ of the IAF chief and the non existance of anything from the PLAAF.
And since you seem to have ALL the evidence please enlighten us about the semantic difference between MAX TOW and LIMIT TOW. This is the thrid time I asking you the question. Please try and answer it this time before you go about dissing the Chief of the IAF again.
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* its strange that quote specifically states 39T for MKI and 27T for the AN-32 and yet I am sure you would agree that the MTOW of 27T for the AN-32 is right. So only HALF the quote is right? And 10 months later the ACM got it wrong too?? That does not add up.
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