George JInstead, that contract went to Orbital Sciences in June 2000, leading to the GQM-163 Coyote SSST. As soon as the GQM-163 becomes available (latest plans say 2005), the remaining MA-31 targets will be retired. However, in June 2004 Boeing received an order to deliver 14 additional MA-31s until the end of 2006, and so it appears that the target will remain longer in U.S. Navy service than originally intended.
And we know that the Coyote went into production around Feb 2006. And if the ESSM really did knock out a MA-31 I am sure they would have made a big hue/cry about it. Instead there is just a reference to it taking out ONE supersonic Vandal (60s vintage…but yes supersonic none-the-less) and a bunch of Harpoons in 2002 (unless they suddenly ran out of MA-31 and no one thought of ordering more till June 2004. Like I said if you feel that it did engage an MA-31 (which is a Russian missile but you feel is not the same as Brahmos, and is closer to a 60’s vintage converted American SAM), I would sure like to see some links to it.
WHo is talking about Janes ? This WHOLE train of dicussion revolves around the Headlines Today special about the Brahmos (see Kalyan’s link) where the CEO himself is explaining how the AShM version works and it is CLEARLY stated how it flies with INS and seeker off for a most of its flight and turns on its seeker for a “fraction of a second” to make corrections (if thats not LPI what is it?). And then turn on its seeker for the final few secs of flight and its too late for the adverseray to do anything by that time.
George JFrom BR http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Delhi.html
Sonar: The first two vessels in the series – INS Delhi and INS Mysore – have a Bharat APSOH (Advanced Panoramic Sonar Hull) hull-mounted sonar, which provides active search with medium frequency and a Garden Reach Model 15-750 variable depth sonar, also known as HUMVAAD, which is mounted in a Canadian Indal-designed ‘fish’ deployed from a ramp in the transom. INS Mumbai features more advanced sonar systems, namely a Thales ATAS (Advanced Towed Array Sonar) system and a Bharat HUMSA (Hull Mounted Sonar Array) system.
George JJonS:
How would ECM take out the Brahmos with its LPI mode? Also by the time it fully opens up the seeker, it does not care since its literally flying at M 2.5 in a stright line for about 2-3 seconds?
It was not the Talos but its MQM-8G Vandal (converted Talos) that was intercepted by ESSM and this inturn will be replaced by the GQM-163A Coyote.
What interesting is that the ESSM was NOT tested against the MA-31. Even though it was available during the Vandal-ESSM interception and the Coyote just recieved its prouduction order in Feb 06. http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/ma-31.html
George J……To be fair to this jacka$$ he has been right on some occasions too……..SAfrican Health monitoring system for MKI…
The HUMS for MKI part is older than FORCE itself and I dont think Sengupta ji had anything to do with it.
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George JVympel:
The IAF SU-30K has an indian GPS box.
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George JIs that really an IAF Su-30K flanker??? It has a GPS panel but whats posted does not look anything like the real thing (its on the top RHS). The riff raff flanker has what looks like a rudimentary MFD display…look at the buttons on either sides.
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George JNick:
..Asked to respond to the reports that Indian fighters had proven ‘more than a match’ for RSAF F-16s, a Singapore Ministry of Defence spokesman said that ‘we can understand why the Indian media would come out with a sensational story like this.’….
One should’nt have a Chuck Yeager type complex in such matters.
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George JMKI costs more than 60 million dollars a unit…and they dont want to put all eggs in one basket.
With the MKI its the manpower issue thats more important than the costs. To have 2-3 two person crew trained to “use” each MKI (it pretty much flies itself, its another thing to learn how to use it effectively) is not the easiest thing for the IAF.
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George JDont forget that RMAF pilots have been to Lohegaon in the late 90’s to train on the Mig-29 (tactics and maintainance).
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George JHi FD, if you dont mind, could you please be more specific as to what type of LCA spin-offs are existent on MKI. googled a lot, but found nothing :(.
MC1/2 and RC1/RC2 were developed based on the experience gained from the LCA program.
http://www.csirwebistad.org/aesi/pages/coreavionics.htm
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George JBring it On:
Nope…I dont ask…I only listen. I tried asking and got no answer (I guess they dont like specific questions but love to tell you how good they are in WVR…without even asking them about it)
Aurcov:
I think we are going in circles here. Its a fact that TVC a/c (developed by the Russian but inducted by the Indians) have been “operational” since 2002. Just coz there are more of F22 does not mean much that its got as much operational experience as something thats been around for four years (which have been far from static). The very fact that Indians now let rookies fly the MKI means the program has matured. Compared to F22 Test Pilots> Experienced F15 pilots> Experienced F16 pilots > Rookies (now). The MKI had the same evolution albeit for the past 4 years in operational service.
Also it can be argued that the Russians have a more developed TVC program and thats why they took chances with exhibiting in in public while the Americans really didnt want to show off its less the mediocre performance till now (look at the video…sure he was not trying….coz its not a USAF pilot but the abominable snowman flying the F22)
George JThe basic course, called the B-course, will last about six months and is designed for a pilot right out of a T-38 and lead-in fighter training…….……
LOL that Code One article (even though you “forgot” to tell us where you got it from) is like deja vu for me w.r.t MKI.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2004/articles/aug_04/fa22/index.html
There are sooooo many many things in this article that are common with MKI that its almost scary.
George JNone of that is relevant to the comment I made……….I don’t know if rookies have been entered into the training program yet. …..
Sure is coz you stated:
…My point is that India doesn’t have some massive huge amount of experience over the USAF, especially given the fact that USAF pilots have been flying test aircraft and EMD Raptors since the 80’s.
Dont worry about the rookies there are many folks who “do this kinda stuff for a living” who hang out in other forums that I frequent (nothing to do with mil or airplanes) who will chime in on the rookie issue if its open source.
George J…….My point is that India doesn’t have some massive huge amount of experience over the USAF, especially given the fact that USAF pilots have been flying test aircraft and EMD Raptors since the 80’s.
Your argument is correct if:
1) If all (most) test pilot on the YF-22/F22 program are also flying the operational raptor.
2) If an indevelopment a/c like the F-22/MKI was actually pushed to the limits of its operational envelop during testing and tactics were concurrently developed. I know thats not true for the K/MKI and hence those “engine nicks and warrenty” problems and hence the aggressive training.
3) Even since 2002 the core group of individuals who have been flying/developing tactics since 1996 on the Su-30K have been translating/updating/modifying them on the MKI to formalize the training process. Sure you can argue that K is not MKI (and its very true even though drone and al-keedas on this board think so) but given that even the K have been VERY formidable in whatever international exposure they got you can imagine what they can do on the MKI.
Thats like the Indian’s claiming that since they have been flight testing the LCA using IAF test pilots the average IAF pilot who will fly the LCA knows how to effectively deploy it.
The MKI now has rookies right out of MOFTU flying in compartment 1 after op. conv. which was not the case a few years ago. I take this is a sign of an exteremly mature training program. If the raptor has rookies then perhaps you can argue that it does have an equally mature training program.
Also a general F22 query:
How does one emperically calculate/validate its RCS to non US contemporary airborn or terrestrial radars without actually testing it against one? IOW, sure you got super duper DING DONG APG to test against but how does that translate to an RBE2 or a N011M detection/non-detection?
For you to have such a degree of certainity you have to know all operating modes/freq of all opposing radards. I know that even during Cope India 04 the IAF was very paranoid about ECM snooping and only authorized a very small % of actual N001 op freqs to be used (and very different from what the brouchures tell you)
George JIIRC the MKI were fully operation (based on their version) when they were inducted in Sept 2002. So either way you slice and dice it the MKI precedes the F22 in operational service.
IN has operated the Sea Hawks (CATOBAR) in the 60’s….I really doubt if anyone is around from that circa. Also the Russians still have the Nitka so that begs the question why goto Miramar for upwards of $40million (?) when you can STOBAR train with Russians (after all the Mig-29K is their a/c and US trained flyboys will have to undergo op. conv training on them). Perhaps the weather is much better in San Diego or perhaps the Russians have also lost a significant experience in carrier ops and the IN thinks its better to have well trained naval aviators who can form the nucleus for an untested platform like Mig-29K, just like the Su-30K (No.24 sqd) was the nursery for the core group of MKI jocks for the IAF.
But I can guarantee you the IN Mig-29K will be whipped in short order in WVR by MKIs no matter if they have TopSight, BottomSight or whatever ding dong they get.
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