……..The perception that the Russians are ahead the US regarding TVC is probably due to the fact that they (the Russians) displayed the Su3x at many public air shows …..there are ~ 40MKIs operational in IAF (Russian AF has does not posses any operational TVC fighter). USAF received 67 Raptors, ~ 40 being “combat-coded” at Tyndall AFB, Nellis AFB and Langley AFB…………

If the TVC/Sura/R 73 is so “close to perfection” how come that the Indians intend to put French HMD made by Sagem on the future navalised MiG 29? I am just curios……

Its not just a perception but a fact, the first in service TVC was inducted by the IAF in Sept 2002 in the form of MKI, the F22 just started operational service. Just coz there are two sqd of MKI does not mean that its the end of the line for MKI. The total Indian aquisition is 190, and there is 1 sqd worth of MKM and god knows what else MKA? MKV?.

I dont think the IN Mig-29K are getting TVC anytime soon so the comparisons is apples to oranges (topsight/R-73 vs TVC/Sura-R73). The old Mig-29S and Su-30K also have HMS/R-73 and yet consistently loose out in WVR to a well trained MKI pilot (hence the comment). Also the first batch of Mig-29K pilots are being trained in the US, does that mean they Indians cant train Mig-29 or Carrier based pilots??

There are 32 + 2 (?) MKI that ve been around since Sept 2002 that make up two sqds. And then you wonder why you guys are called Shanghai Statisticians. And this information is VERY pertinent to this discussion since the only operational “superflanker” are the Su-30MKI (till the MKM come) unless there is some sort of warped Oracle logic that prohibits you from discussion whats actually out there and you rather compare a recently operational a/c with a non existant/indevelopment a/c. Must make sense in your statisical world.

……..If the Russians do go ahead with their own definitive variant, you can bet it would be better than any of the monkey versions sold elsewhere…………

Unless they’ve made some revolutionary advanced in avionics (RC/MC) I dont think they can replaced “monkey version” indian avionics (and another vendor that I guess is not open source) with their own clunkers and still come out with a definitive variant. There is a reason why MKI Mk.3 is what it is. Till they decide to come up with their own super flanker the MKI remains the top dog.

F-22 attempts a Cobra and other mad skillz early 90’s Su-27 style moves

http://semperapollo.com/Quickstart/VideoLib/Langley2006/Raptor.mpg

Hmm I wonder why the Malaysians didnt use the services of Ukeranians/Mongolians in servicing their MKM, as some Shanghai Statisticians had noted the IAF MKI fleet was “grounded/cannibalised” so obviously the Indians arent really upto par.

Incidentally this deal would be the second deal with the Malaysians after we helped trains their Mig-29 pilots and ground crew way back in the 90’s after we learnt the hard way to service and maintain post CCCP aircrafts, which in turn led to very specific language in contracts about whats covered whats not covered under warrenty, what is the scope of support from OEM and what the sparing factor/spares ratio would be. Which in turn lead to the putative “grounding/cannibalization” of IAF like the chinese flankers (or so some would like to believe).

I hope the Malaysian techs know how to speak english (they will pick up a bit of Hindi when they to get to India) you gotta to hear the stories of how OEM actually maintain uber complex systems like the Bars: its a hotch potch of russian, hindi, english, sign language and good ol fashioned mathematics.

MK(I/M) is nothing if it werent for the ppl that maintain them or the ppl that fly them and you if have to import ukeranians and mongolians to do that for you, then Mao help you.

…………….A scale of operations that only Ukrainians and Russians have had with the Su-27 series………After taking care of only 19 Su-30Ks and in only a year of operating a 20 odd MKIs. It’s like the kid who bought a new car and had driven it for three weeks trying to tell company operating a fleet of cars how he knows maintenance better….

Nope its like a kid who bought 32 BMW M5 with deep TOT and has the best warrenty plan from BMW coz they paid through their nose for it and expect the best vs someone who bought 300 BMW 535i (looks the same to an untrained eye) 10 years ago whose warrenty expired 7 years ago and are now making cheap knockoffs and need lets say…friendly neighbourhood mexicans/ukranians/mongolians to fix EVERYTHING coz the fleet owner was too cheap or too dumb not to buy an extended & comprehensive warrent (or even the official repair manual). But I really like your analogy.

Why does it make you so angry and envious that you’re trying to stop us from discussing a newly certified engine, George?…….Be more of an aviation fan instead of internet warrior who thinks he has to further his nation cause by insulting Chinese people as “drones.”

I am not envious. If the Chinese really truly have a working WS-10A (something we will never know coz like ppl have said Chinese are very guarded about everything and the army of Kanwa Krappers and photochoppers dont really help in ANY way) then they truly deserve world respect. But when the Russians say (coz the Chinese wont) that they are SELLING 100’s of AL-31FN for the Chinese J-10 program and then you claim that they can make 100’s of airframes…it really does not repose much confidence in the WS-10A program.

Alls I am saying is that you guys should hold off crowing the WS-10A till its SOMEWHERE near op service. I donno who said it….but if you claim that you can use WS-10A as the op engine and the AL-31FN as the spare that is perfectly interchangeable (same specs, performance and mountings) then its just a klone not really a NEW engine. Its awefully suspecious that your own 100% Chinese design engine is a perfect substitute for the AL-31FN engine.

I know for a fact that the LCA has been optimized for the GE IN20 engine and will need major work when the Kaveri is mated. But then like you said the chinese are lightyears ahead of the Indians….they dont need to redesign anything….its just plug and play. Nowhere else in the world are two engines made in two totally different countries just great plug and play as you guys claims. And then you wonder WHY you guys are called drones.
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…….With China, the WS10A is not the future, but the PRESENT. You can bet they have already been testing a J10 with a WS10A engine ALREADY (PAST) testing somewhere. China’s true capability is hidden and secret, ……….The Kaveri is a long long way from certification. It has a good chance of failing altogether. India is far behind China……. let’s not even get into the LCA, which is becoming irrelevant, and out of date……..India faces no such embargo, but even full access to the West’s technology has not helped India much in absorbing and retaining the technology.

Who said that Kaveri was the future it is the present too (as much as WS10A is)…the point is that the present is far from here so its the future. Your arguments would be ABSOLUTELY RIGHT if China were inducting WS-10A engined J-10 not merely testing them. Your arguments would certainly be true if you had not ordered 100-250 AL-31FN. Thats way more than what the Indians want induct their fighter with. The IAF only wants 20 + 20 LCA with GE engines not 100 J-10 as some have seem to implied.

You are right there is no comparison…the Chinese are FAR MORE committed to the -FN than the Indians are to the IN20.

Also your argument about embargo is wrong as the GE engines were hit with sanctions in 1998 and so was the validation of the advanced CLAWS and DFCC.

But you are right…China is highly secretive I would say very defensive. Given that most chinese posters on the internet have no clue what their govt is doing coz no one get to talk to the ppl who matter and very little ever gets published in scientific literature (unlike the Indians) for all you know they could be making death stars by now. But then we all know Death Stars are purely fictional coz they exisited in a galaxy far far away and long long time ago. So your assertions about Chinese mil tech and R&D is as good as the last Kanwa report and chinese photochop.
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Ok..I will make somebody job easier by posting some thread which has discuss before of Chinese aircraft product quality…

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=48249&page=1&pp=30

Pls go thru all of it !

I did got through ALL of it and could you PLEASE TELL US how how a thread about J-11B (which is not exported) has anything to do with user feedback of chinese exports?? Also the thread that you ve linked meanders a bit into Russian a/c quality and compares that with domestic chinese production of lic mfg kits.

Nothing to do with Chinese exports. Unless I missed something which I am sure you will be MORE than delighted to SPECIFICALLY POINT TO in the link you posted.

…………Why Saturn acting like sour grapes? Salyut used the contract money to create a brand new facility when the other Russian engine plants are desperate for equipment modernization. UFA may have tested a 14.5 ton trust engine before, but they are not even close to certifying a 13.2 ton engine as Salyut recently did…………

This is the credibility conundrum that I really dont want to delve into. If you read what I posted from Lastochkin’s interview in 2001 he really did not have anything kind to say about Salyut. India has nothing to do with Salyut (I hope thats amply clear now) and so whatever beef you guys have its between NPO Saturn and Salyut and maybed the Chinese are getting screwed in the bargain.

India cast its lot with UFA which as you can CLEARLY see did not have a easy time certifing the engines and getting the FP upto speed but since it has close links with the designer AND this was the same plant that was associated with tech specs of the AL-21 engines for the Mig-27 I guess its a long standing relationship that India wanted to maintain.

If Salyut has come up with its own crop of designers that are as good as if not better than NPO Saturns then more power to them.

Woo:
I dont think India has ANYTHING to do with Salyut (see Lastochkin’s interview on top of the page). So there is no questoin of them getting any part of Indian’s $3.3 B, whatever is DUE to NPO Saturn and Ufa has been paid out to them as Lastochkin CLEARLY states w.r.t the AL-31FPl
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