The quality was poor originally, but has drastically improved as the technological base matured. Funny an Indian would be talking about quality when their planes tend to fall out of the sky all by themselves.. 😮 😉

Umm WHY DO OUR PLANES fall out of the sky? Care to venture an explanation. Or rather care to venture an explantion that is better than the constitutionally appointed watchdog agency of a democratic country. I am sorry I know terms like “constitution” and “watch dog” dont really ring a bell with commie dicts. But hey someday you gotta learn right?

I would really like to see some unbiased references to both “poor quality” and “drastically improved” bits too.

How I am the drone? Am I the one conforming to authority…blindly following whats stated by the politbureau and other commie dicts.? I definately dont want to close this this thread PROVIDED someone here gives us ENOUGH reasons to keep this chinese export worship thread open.

This thread is definately worth keeping IF:
1) we can discuss export product quality
2) why its high/low and what can be done to improve it or maintain it

If not…I agree with the admin this thread is definately a waste of bandwith and is just a space to inline images of mediocre soviet knockoffs like AN-12 and Mig-19/21. So this is your chance to redeem yourself.

Goldendragon (name of my favorite Chinese restaurant in New Delhi):
I do agree that this thread is about WS-10A but by extension its about the engine that currently runs (AL-31FN) the a/c that is the zenith of Chinese aerospace tech (J-10). And the fact that we keep getting reports of folks order 100’s of FN really does not repose much confidence in it.

But like YOU said so eloquently (albeit ignoring a lot of facts):

As always, it talk about the future :rolleyes:

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Goldendragon
The sprares have been factored into the cost of the contract. Eg. the $3.3 B contract for deep lic. mfg of the 140MKI includes making 920 ‘spare’ engines (unless you somehow believe that they make airframes only and twiddle their thumbs till HAL Koraput finally assembles/makes its first QC checked -FP) If that were the case how do you explain SB101 and SB102 (HAL built MKI when HAL Koraput is far from making its first -FP engine).

Unless off course you have some non Kanwa/non-photochopped evidence that can counter what AWST says.
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From Moscow Defence Briefs, No.6:

Over the past few years, MMPP Salyut has led Russian aircraft engine production in terms of sales. Its turnover exceeded $270 million (with profits of $58 million) in 2001, rose to $300-320 million in 2002, and is estimated to climb to $400 million in 2003. Sales of AL-31F engines constitute 70% of total sales. The company specializes on deliveries to China, thus splitting the market with UMPO, which covers deliveries to India. Salyut General Director Yuri Yeliseev predicts that the absolute volume of AL-31F/FN sales will rise over the next five years. Since existing delivery contracts will be completed by that time, the growth will probably stem from the licensed production of AL-31F engines and deliveries for F-10 light fighters……

Salyut is also making its own attempts to upgrade the AL-31F. Nezavisimoye Voyennoye Obozreniye Weekly has reported that an engine with a thrust of 13 tons (up from 12.5 tons in standard models) made 20 flights in 2002, and that the thrust is to be boosted to 13.3 tons in 2003. ….

Thanks to high export revenues, Salyut is able to invest heavily in the renewal of fixed assets……..The company has set up its own design bureau, which concentrates on upgrading the AL-31F. It also cooperates closely with the Central Insti*tute of Aviation Motors and the Ukrainian Pro*gress Design Bureau. It is interesting to note that the overall strategies of the two competi*tors – Saturn and Salyut – in regard to Ukrain*ian engine-makers are direct opposites……..

The least amount of information is available about UMPO. Unlike Lastochkin and Yel*iseyev, UMPO top managers have not given de*tailed interviews to national publications and the company does not have a web-site. In Soviet times, UMPO was one of the country’s biggest engine production facilities. Back in 1994, it had a total of 28,000 employees. In addition to aircraft engines, it used to make automobile and harvester engines. At present, it concentrates on the production of AL-31FP engines for Su-30MKI fighters. Unofficial reports say that UMPO had great difficulties launching produc*tion and delayed the delivery of the first batch of fighters to India several times in 2002, as it was unable to guarantee the necessary quality and reliability :diablo: …….

From the interview with Yuri Lastochkin:

….
What are the plans of further advancing Saturn? Do you intend to merge with the Ufa Motor-Building Production Association (UMPO)?

The Ufa Motor-Building Production Association is a very solid big plant that independently manufactures AL-31 en*gines and their modifica*tions. We cooperate with Ufa on a number of promising programs, including the develop*ment, of a new engine. The Ufa plant is a very impor*tant partner. There is a possibility that at the next stage of its development Saturn will form an integrated entity involving UMPO.

How do you see the future of the Moscow Salyut engine plant?

Salyut is a state unitary enterprise and the gov*ernment should decide about its future. But I personally cannot understand why a plant that does not have its own design bureau is wasting money from state coffers on developing projects it never engaged in before. Salyut is a plant making engines serially. Nothing serious will come of this without uniting with a design bu*reau, even if Salyut brings together 200, 300 or 500 designers, provides them with computer hardware and software. No matter how loudly Salyut PR people may be speaking to the opposite.

But there are reports that Salyut is upgrading the AL-31F engine and has developed a thrust of up to 14.5 tonnes.

As far as I know nobody has given Salyut a re*quest for proposal for upgrading AL-31F. Like*wise anyone may start developing, say, an en*gine for a flight to the Moon. Engines are not upgraded that way. In order to launch the up*grading of an aircraft engine, a government commission led by representatives of the Air Force and consisting of designers of the aircraft in which the engines are installed has to work for a year. For instance, aircraft of the Su-27 family. Besides, Salyut has not developed any*thing so far: it only started engines with a well-known fan modification. But aircraft engines should be started in absolutely different condi*tions, not somewhere behind the screen at night. As for the 14.5 tonne thrust, it was achieved al*ready ten years ago. Therefore, Salyut activities can be called only unjustifiably amateurish. I want to repeat that Salyut will be unable to de*velop anything serious without a professional design bureau. It lacks the necessary specialists. There are only three-four designers left in this country today who can develop or upgrade an engine. And they don’t work for Salyut.……..

What can you say about the state of AL-41 engine for advanced combat aircraft systems?

Combat aviation is facing a huge number of tasks. As a result, combat systems are becoming very complex and multifunctional. Our strike aircraft systems are heavier than in the West. They are not worse, but our radars are heavier, our avionics is heavier. There is a whole family of AL-41 engines with varying lengths of service life. Correspondingly, this weight requires guar*anteed additional thrust. We are trying to reach this objective in our work on AL-41.

Saturn is the only entity in Russia today devel*oping such an engine. It has been flight-tested on the 1.44 aircraft developed at the MiG de*sign bureau. A comprehensive program has been mapped out. An engine with thrust vectoring capability, a new fan and thrust of 14.5 tones will be assembled on the basis of AL-31FP this year.

Is Saturn paid for the sale of the license for the AL-31FP engine?

Yes, Saturn is getting money under the con*tract. We are transferring all the technical documents to the Indians, and the Ufa plant under the same contract is responsible for pre*paring production, equipment and several tech*nological processes

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…………. Diagram of conventional plane layout on the MFD puts this as FC-1 not J-10.

I dont think that holds for all a/c of all countries. I ve seen displays for various subsystems that use some stylized forms of the a/c to convey the info.

Ufa-Saturn make our engines for the IAPO made and even HAL made planes till HAL Koraput is ready to make -31FP engines from the Ufa’s TOT to it. Salyut makes the AL-31F engines for the KNAAPO made/supplied planes for China.

The spares were already factored INTO the contract for the hybred 50 Su-30K to MKI contract and the AWST article is the source for the 920 “spares” for the 140 MKI contract. Now before that thread was closed the main object you had was that the sparing factor is not 6.57 but lower coz 240 engines would be used in the 140 MKI. And that could be/would be correct except that HAL Koraput is waaaaay off from making Indian AL-31FP engines (I dont even want to speculate when the first engines will roll out). So wheather you believe it or not the first 2 HAL MKI are pretty much powered by 4 UMPO made -31FP and its not been debited from the 920 spares.
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Todo you need to READ (perhaps if you read better you would stop making a fool of yourself) see the non-bolded portion. The article clearly differentiates between AL-31F for the lic. mfg Su-27SKM and the J-10 which has a custom made Salyut engine the AL-31FN.

About WHY these are reported? Well that brings up back to Chinese not reading the fine prints or not being able to make good deals with the russians. They “might have’ realized their sparing factor was far below what others have and had to sign up for more engines (over and above whats in the initial contract) to prevent grounding and cannibalizations. $500 M is a very very big contract for any mfg, I am sure its not a part of the OEM supplied engines for the lic. assembled a/c. This will keep Salyuts plants humming with the F and the FN engines for a long time.

Off course this is another nail on the WS-10 coffin.
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Well “single party rule by communist” is just too long and inaccurate (repression of media and search engines etc) so commi dictatorship is apposite. Oh and on the Oracle forum one can never get too tired of anything.

The price tag sure is attractive (I do find some good buys at the local $ store too), but not everything is worth the money you paid for it. Thats why some independent verification would really add substance to this otherwise one sided discussion/recitation.