I’d do what i proposed in “the carriers for everybody” topic, buy 3 medium allround afordable STOVL carriers in the 30.000 ton range, instead of trying to impress and outgun everybody with a weapon system that is too expensive, too big, too late, too uncertain and too futuristic.

If F35B would be cancelled now you’d have another expensive (read as: can’t afford) overhaul of the QE class to become CTOL carriers, off which certainly only 1 will be overhauled. Off course maybe India will buy them then… at a real bargain…

Umm i might not understand it too well, but since CVF is a STOVL carrier, why shouldn’t the second one be able to use the F35 B???? all you need is a flat deck with a skijump, no???

So if i use my small brain right this means there will be 2 carriers, but with only 1 airwing? That’s how france worked in the past.

That what you get with buying bigger then you can handle 😀

I’ll give my opinion on this.

Given the fact that weapons, even with all the advance in technology, only get more expensive (don’t ask me why), it’s very unlikely that britain can sustain it’s SSBN fleet without once again cutting somewhere else (places, warships, etc.).

There are 2 options in my view to keep a deterrent:

1. Organise the nuclear SSBN fleet on NATO level. This is a hard political debate, as it would mean for Britain and in the future France to loose it souverenty over the fleet. But i don’t see a senario where britain would actually use it’s nukes without acting in a Nato environment. Also non nuclear NATO countries would have to contribute (at least money) to this project, so it will not be popular.

2. Build a more afordable, flexible (even of the shelve) type of nuclear deterrent. Ideal and cheap as a stopgap would be more astute class subs with VLS and tactical tomahawk. This should be a really cheap option (although they’ll find ways to throw out millions without any return, i’m sure of it).
As the T-hawk is somewhat a slow cruise missile money should be invested to develop a supersonic stealth VL replacement in say 10 years.
This option would have the benefit of freeing up alot of funds for getting more boats in the water, more SSN’s and more destroyers/frigates and planes for the new oversized carriers, which are far more needed to protect the new carriers and the overseas interests. If the falkslands do get invaded again, i don’t see anybody using nukes anyway, as proven in the last war.

A possible middle road would be a combination of both above so a national nuclear power can be conserved.

Now what really is going to happen is that Britain will build new SSBN’s but will cut money on the missiles, so like the carriers you will get giant war machines without actual teeth.

In any case one must start to face the economic reality of the armed forces. You just can’t have everything.

This was my 2 cents contribution.

The new carriers are overambitious for the UK, if they want to make cuts in the navy, why not get rid of the boomers? Nice boats but totaly one mission minded, they could convert 2 tot tomahawk + SBS ships like the US navy did. As for loosing the nuclear deterrent, why not consider putting nuclear tipped tomahawks on VLS in attack subs? would cost a lot less and you still have nuclear capability.

I’m very dissapointed in LCS 2, i thought it would use it’s internal volume better then this, especially the tiny helicopter hangar.

I wish my country bought 2 absalon instead of those old dutch frigates which are outdated concepts from the cold war.

excellent comparison for the rest!

CVF is in my opinion way too big for it’s british role and the airgroup it’s meant to carry. I still believe that teh british navy would have been alot better served with 2-3 30.000-35.000 ton large Vstol carriers and/or a extra ocean then with these 2 large carriers. The invincibles are too small, i agree, but tripling there size for an airgroup the same size as the almost 40% smaller De Gaule is a waist of steel and money. As they will only have 1 Vstol fighter that can operate for almost any size type carrier (25.000-60.000 tons) and lacking catapults to have really long range radar and anti sub aircraft on board, these carriers face a future that may very well resemble that of after war british carriers, that of a oversized commando ship. Even if they are convertable into normal carriers, it will again cost alot of money to crack them open and change all the gear, money that can be alot better spend, let alone the cost of rebuying diferent aircraft.

I still doubt they will be build at all and if they are, on time and within cost. Now the british navy faces a future with perhaps 2 large carriers and a very small number of escorts and subs for the so called “force projection”. These carriers will be crown juwels nobody really wants to put in harms way. If you really want global power you need at least numbers and attrition possibilities.

In the age of the acocuntant, aleast try to build a ship that fits your income and not something only good to go a posh about.

as for the french, i’d never would have gone along with CVF and i’d would have build a second de gaule, no matter what people say, she’s in the water and is operational (and she looks better too 🙂 ).

I wonder if we bought any weapons with them :diablo: ….

they look nice, but i think smaller vessels would be more usefull in a belgian defense senario, I don’t think belgium should invest alot in Blue water ops, now we have 2 frigates, meaning 1 available at any time, nice vessels with potential no doubt, but unsufficient for guarding and controlling the bussiest shipping line in the world. Another wasted investment with our limited budget, but what do you exspect with our current minister of defense…………

buying 4 visby class (or alike) class ships would have been more usefull, as they have far reduced operation costs, if we still had shipyards in belgium they could have been build here under licence (good for the economy)

anybody have the right procurement costs of the dutrch frigates to compare? (inclusing the overhaul cost)

a visby costs 185 million $, if what i found is correct, being 139 million euros each, the 2 dutch frigates cost 250 million euro’s (for the 2, so 125 million each), but are second hand, have twice the crew and will be worn out in 10 years. I’m not the best accountant, but i think we were had by the dutch, thanks to the “”brilliant”” strategy of our minister.