martin_EGTKBA crews usually get 24 hours stopover on flights to the East Coast. So day 1 they fly there, day 2 they rest, day 3 they fly back. European flights only tend to be one night.
martin_EGTKFirstly, Cheers Martin, I guess some people here get a little hot under the collar very quickly.
Also, well done on getting your first job in aviation, it’s extremely hard to get the lucky break we all need to start our careers in aviation.
I would also like to point out that Martin has achieved is goals because he thinks with a level head and takes on board advice from others. I would recommend some people on these threads with desires to becoming a professional pilot take notice.
well done mate, enjoy it. 😉
😉
Many thanks mate, your words really mean a lot to me and I was honestly very touched by what you said above. I can’t give too much away about the job at the moment, but hopefully within the next couple of weeks I’ll be able to fill you in a bit more.
Thanks again buddy, and thanks for all your support along the way…I owe you a drink!
martin_EGTKmartin, yr words are sincere and I really do appreciate them, they sound like the words of a real professionist, and they show what a valuable person and pilot you are. I’m sure u met some arrogant professional pilot in your life/career (I did and most of us did here), and the point is that this shouldnt exist, as arrogance goes along with excessive self-confidence and together they r a deadly mixture. U know better than me the enormous steps made with CRM, MCC and psychological analisys of pilot’s behaviour, so that’s why to me an arrogant airline pilot is a professional failure, and the existance of such persons is a matter of fact(unfortunately).
I tried discussing with WD, but he was too concerned to show how good professional pilots are to pay some attention to what I was really saying, or maybe it was just a misunderstanding, i don’t know, but I won’t loose my sleep about it.. 😉Cheers
Alex
Many thanks for the kind words. I totally agree that there really should be no place for arrogance on the flight deck, of course there is nothing wrong with being proud of your job, I’m extremely proud of what I do, but as you have said it can be an extremely dangerous quality on the flight deck. Sadly however, they will always exist, I know many myself, but likewise I know many extremely decent, sincere and dedicated guys who love what they do but realise that it makes them no better than anyone else.
I think that it might just be a misunderstanding between you and WD. WD is arguing the point that commercial guys are on the hole better pilots than GA guys and I think he is offering many very valid points. Let’s not mistake his strong convictions for arrogance. Arrogant is the last thing WD is, he is just very keen to make himself understood and with justification. The fact of the matter is that ATPL guys are better pilots generally, but mainly because we do it day in and day out, it is neither harder nor easier than GA flying. However, given a chance I’m sure there are many many GA pilots out there that, if they flew the same number of hours as we do would be better pilots, it’s just a question of quantity over quality.
We train extremely hard for what we do and the depth and level of the training must not be underestimated, it is the biggest challenge that most of us will ever experience in our lives and it is something that never ends as we are constantly training. With regards to not being able to navigate, I’d like to point out that we have to regularly simulate instrument failure and revert to the good old GA VFR method and it is still a form of navigation I feel very confident on and I feel most of my collegues the world over would agree that they do too.
martin_EGTKSorry to step into the fray again but I can’t sit back and watch this rubbish being posted. The way Alex will work everyday as a commercial pilot is with a sensible attitude and not by thinking he’s better than everyone else. You are criticising him for taking the attitude that neither commercial or GA pilots are better than each other – just different. The airline pilots job is made easier by the equipment available to him, of course it is. Alex, has a mature and down to earth attitude to commercial aviation and I would be a passenger on an airliner he was flying anyday….. not sure about some of you others though. You don’t seem to have the mental capacity to comprehend the arguments people are making, let alone fly these super complex pieces of machinery you keep on about.
I was not questioning Alex’s ability to become a successful pilot, nor his ability to argue his point, which he has done extremely well and in a very level headed manner. I’m just questioning whether he really wants to go ahead with his chosen career if he feels so many airline pilots are I quote ‘arrogant’. We have nothing to be arrogant about, we fly our planes and get people from A to B and we’ve trained hard for it, but we’re not that special. It was just that Alex seems to insinuate that he has met many many arrogant pilots who claim to be special just because they fly airliners and he seemed to be accusing WD of the same thing, despite the fact that WD has also argued a very level headed arguement and that he is a fine example of a decent airline pilot who I would be proud to fly with.
martin_EGTKOk My turn,
WD and Martin,
You both seem to forget on thing you guys are flying basically over size sims your whole flight deck is on big flight Sim. While most GA aircraft still have 60 tech. in it.
RER
I don’t fly a big modern EFIS transport aircraft, I fly the PA31-350, most of which were built in the late 60s and early 70s…very old technology and far from the lovely EFIS environment so many of my collegues are lucky enough to fly. Even when I move on to the BAe Jetstream 31 in the Autumn, it’s still 80s technology and lacks EFIS.
martin_EGTKWD I dont know if u r an airline pilot, but u definitely talk like on of them.. u seem not to pay attention to what we’re telling u, u just keep on blabbering about the professionality of the cathegory, but once again I have hundreds of examples that show how the skill level of commercial pilots decreased in the last decades. U just replied to flying chick’s provocations, but not to my posts.. oh well… :rolleyes:
Alex
Alex, I suggest if this is your attitude towards airline pilots you seriously rethink your career plans. How are you going to work with us everyday if you hold this attitude. I personally think WD is making some extremely valid points, lets put it very basically, the more training that is undertaken, the better the pilot is going to be. We get checked every six months, I fly six sectors a day (roughly 8 hours on average), most GA guys fly an hour, maybe two a month. This does not make them bad pilots, far from it, but we are naturally going to be better at it because we get more practise. This is not airline pilot arrogance, it’s just common sense.
martin_EGTKBrilliant!!
I know I am, I’m an airline pilot!!! 😉 :p
martin_EGTKYou’re comparing the “ease” of a 1960’s 3 crewed aircraft to the 2 person crews of today? I think there are some folks who’ve ACTUALLY flown both that might disagree with you. It’s often said the easiest job in aviation is a 727 FO.
And you seem to be perpetuating them as well with your uninformed opinions of professional pilots.
If you’re talking about flying aerobatics then yes your 10 hours are more applicable. If you’re talking about some serious IFR flying than those 10 hours are worthless. Aviation has a wide range of jobs and pilot training must be geared towards specific environments. You seem to be caught up believing that your flight time transfers equally across all aspects of aviation and somehow increases your worth as a pilot. Trust me, it doesn’t.
Without having walked a mile in the shoes of a professional pilot how do you justify your comments? How does straight and level in a C152 differ than a 737? Honestly the new C172’s are better equiped that most airliners. Dual GPS, 3 axis autopilot?
Bus driver of the sky? Oh man, ignorance is written all over this.
All of your comments have been nothing but arrogance and sweeping generalisations FC.
You seem to be under the impression that professional pilots woke up flying an airliner one day and have never set foot in a GA aircraft. I personally have 1000 hours in small aircraft with a good part of that time as a flight instructor. That time even includes 400 hours of me folding my 6′ 6″ frame into the wonderful C152.
You seem to take a look at the last 1000 hours of someone’s experiences without understanding that there are 1000’s of hours before that which include experiences you don’t know about.
The single biggest variable and builder of experience for any pilot (especially a GA pilot) is weather. It’s safe to say that a professional pilot has seen more types of weather in different situations than any GA pilot can hope to see. Ask yourself, on those days when the GA community is grounded due to weather how many airliners and other commerical aircraft can’t fly? When the winds are pushing 30-40 knots it’s not the automation that safely lands that aircraft no matter what you’ve assumed.
Skycruiser is right, Commerical pilots have greater experience and knowledge than your average GA pilot. That’s not arrogance, it’s the truth. We’ve seen both sides of the aviation coin.
I think you’ve made several very good points here WD. Especially with regards to a 727 FO being the easiest job in aviation!
I’ve had one or two bedding in flights on the PA31-350 to get me acustomed to it and there is very little between the work load I have in this aircraft and the work load I’ve had during my JOT and MCC training on the 737-400. It’s a hell of a lot of work, particularly with all the preflight preparation as opposed to my days on the PA-28. I’m not wanting to belittle GA flying whatsoever, I love it and always will and it can be a real challenge at times, I mean keeping a PA-28 straight and level was often tough even in the smallest of clouds! But the work load I’ve experience as a commercial pilot has been a lot greater, but equally has been a very different type of work. We’re all trying to compare two completely different types of flying!
martin_EGTKPretty good going for one so young. The commercial route is not for me but lots of people do seem to make good careers out of it. I just hate all the bull**** and arrogance that goes along with it – just don’t get sucked into that side of things.
I completely agree with you, I’ve trained with far too many guys who think they are gods gift just because they fly for a living…something I will always try to avoid, you have my word 🙂
martin_EGTKDon’t worry Alex, no offence taken whatsoever, just highlighting the reasons behind my decision. Good luck with the training buddy, it’s long and hard, at some points you’ll hate it, other times you’ll love it 🙂 And yes, I am 18!
DME, I’ll be flying PA31-350s which are 8 to 10 seater regional commuter airliners made by Piper. This is an interim measure by the airline I’m going to and they will be replaced by BAe Jetstream 31s in about 6 to 12 months time so I’ll be off to BAe to do my type rating at some point during the summer probably.
martin_EGTKThat’s typical of airline pilots… :rolleyes:
Your type-rating on 747 makes u any better than a pilot flying a King Air, and to be honest your senses must be less ready now that u seat in a huge airliner.. One typical mishap occurring to airline pilots getting back to small planes is doing flares at 50ft, with the easily understandable outcoming *SBRAAANG!!!*Alex
Alex,
Skycruiser is most certainly not the type of guy who looks down on any pilot just because he flys 747s. Quite the reverse in fact, he has been very supportive of me throughout my training and has many times commended my desire to fly anything at all whether it be a Tiger Moth or a A380. I had not wanted to mention this yet, and I will not yet be mentioning it in the Commerical forum, but I have recently secured my first airline job which I will be starting in March. It’s not flying 737s or A320, not even BAe 146s or Jetstreams, but I will be flying an eight seater PA-31-350 Chieftan on regional scheduled services in the UK. As a bus driver as opposed to a sunday flyer I have respect for both parties, but I sometimes feel there is not enough understanding of flying as a profession as opposed to doing it as a hobby. I think far too many people thing of us commercial guys as ‘fly boys’ who just want to be doing it for the money, uniform and women. Inside all over us with only a very few exceptions there is a very deep love of flying and basic aviation and that is what fuels us to go into work each day and fly to a schedule and to a strict code. No one is looking down on anyone else here.
In addition to this I can assure you that you are totally mistaken with my attitude Alex and I must say that your belief that I want to only do the bear minimum to become an FO is unfounded and totally untrue. In fact I have done so many added ratings, extra flying, and additional studying of subjects that are not necessary to gaining an ATPL all out of choice and because I want to be a safe efficient commercial pilot with a total understanding of what I’m doing. I would actually pride myself on my commitment and time spent on my chosen career, and although this may sound somewhat arrogant, this is probably the reason why I have gained a job several months before finishing my training when there are probably 400 or 500 guys in a similar situation in the UK who are out of work because they did the bear minimum or just don’t give it 120%. I have explained my reasoning behind not doing my spin training, I lost a good friend through it and after the event I promised both his brothers, his mother and my own family that I would not do my practical spin training if they did not wish me to and I have kept my word on that whilst practising spin training for probably about 40 hours in the sim (and I wish to add, this is not flight sim as you seem to have suggested here Alex). I feel a prepared as can be to pull myself out of a spin. As a ,aviation is about CRM or team work and that’s something I think we should be concentrating on more in every aspect of flying whether it be PPL standard or flying a 747, so lets all show a bit more respect for each other and get along!
Alex, get some more experience of what you are about to do and the world you’re about to enter before criticising others that have dedicated their lives to it.
martin_EGTKnow back to the spin topic..
Martin could u explain us better how u mean to skip the aerobatic hours? :confused:Alex
Of course I can buddy! It’s not required by the UK CAA or JAR. As I’ve said, aerobatic hours are not required with an ATPL, the only spin training that is required can is carried out in an FNTPII simulator. My FTO (Oxford Aviation) has the option of the spin training, but it is only an option, not a requirement.
martin_EGTKUh I dunno, ask him, not me 🙂 I know they’re obligatory..
The flying school I know has a CAP20 for it, and I can’t wait to puke all over the cockpit! 😀 😀 😀Alex
Alex my friend, I’m afraid I can assure you that you are mistaken, both myself and Skycrusier (who is a 747 first officer) have made seperate statements confirming that it is no longer necessary and indeed hasn’t been for a very long time (12 years I think). We’re taught how to recover from a spin in theory, but as you have stated yourself a commercial airliner is near impossible to get into a spin.
martin_EGTKBoth sentences are wrong: the ATPL course has at least 2 hours of aerobatic flying to test unusual manouvers.
Alex
I’m in the very late stages of my ATPL course and I can assure you that there is no required training for aerobatic flying. Full emergency procedures such as asymetric flight etc are practised on a very regular basis, in fact I haven’t flown an entire flight on two engines in the last month and a half.
Spinning and aerobatics are not included as a mandatory part of the JAR ATPL in anyway shape or form.
martin_EGTKHave you all thought why spin training is no longer required!!!!!!!!!!
More people were getting killed doing the spin training that people spinning in unintentionally.
A piontless excercise in my eyes.
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