Allison JohnsonAllison – our mutual friend has told me he dived on it – apprently he saw a four gun rear turret down there.
That was a different lake. I was there. He was talking to the ranger to get permissions to get on to Wasswater.
Ali
Allison JohnsonA bathtub with holes in??
Car from the Pink Panther without the wheels?
Ali
Allison JohnsonNo need to apologise. You have as much right to give your opinion as I have to give mine (even if yours is wrong :p 😀 )
Best wishes
Steve P
” Don’t be scared of debate – it’s a way of developing one’s understanding.”
Ali :p
Allison JohnsonYes. Stirling Project aware – RAF team apparently sent down ROV but too expensive/deep to recover.
TT
Would be nice to see some pictures. The problem with that lake is you can’t get a powered boat on there so it’s either you can’t do a sonar scan or you get some fit blokes with a longboat.
Any volunteers?
Ali
Allison JohnsonA stirling MAY turn up in a fijord somewhere – one is known but its too deep for recovery
I read a story about the four engined thingy at the bottom of Wasswater. There are stories that a few people have actually dived it but who? Everyone who has said “joe Bloggs” has dived it I can’t seem to get hold of him. Has anyone ACTUALLY seen it or dived it or got photos, or is it just one of those myths like the Windermere Sunderland picture that was in The Times?
Ali
Allison JohnsonSure Stuart – dont doubt that -that was a small part of my post- but I think I was concentrating on the AA aspect -the thread has become more historiographical/political – now thats fine, I can discuss Hegels Dialetic *- for that is essentially what you’re talking about – with the best of them, but I was only trying to give the lass a bit of advice in the post!
TT
*ahh the wonders of a history degree :p 😀
And contrary to popular belief I listen to advice. I also voice an opinion if I feel it’s relevant. If a forum like this is just a “shut up and listen” session, which it isn’t, then I wouldn’t be here. I have had a lot of people contact me off the forum who have supported my thoughts and some that haven’t. You can please some people all the time but you can’t please all.
Ali
Allison JohnsonAli –
not posted here before as I was seeing how things developed – both Cees and JDK have given sage advice. There are many years experience of aviation archaeology on this forum -no one has criticised your enthusiasm.
However, it is very easy to watch Discovery Wings ad infinitem and read up on the subject – pulling movement cards and ops logs is a step further (and is dead easy) but is not the same as doing a dig or a recovery and being involved in the machinery.
You didnt say whether you had ever been involved in a recovery before – I’m guessing no as you werent familiar with the procedure (prior to the thread the other week when I and others explained how it worked) –
Just my penn’orth –
– Having read up on the subject you will be familiar with stories of inexperienced ‘amateurs’ causing damage to the airframe/artefacts – if you dont know what you’re doing how can you be certain you wont destroy or damage the archaeology due to inexperience?
– I was always told to ‘look and learn’ when i was a kid – there are some knowledgeable people here – you can row with them or learn from them – your choice!
– I would advise you to join a local aviation archaeology group and learn the craft and licence application procedure etc – you will know of course that those who apply for a licence must be a member of a group (ie so the recovered remains will be preserved/displayed not simply flogged on =- well that was the theory).It is not normally ‘hunt the newbie’ on this forum – but it has been known for ‘old hands’ (for example members here include present and former BBMF crew, Museum staff and instigators, conservators, RAF Personnel, warbird owners and pilots and one gentleman who single handedly recovered quite a few spitfires himself and is one of the most respected blokes in his field) to get a bit miffed at being lectured by those who clearly dont know how the whole thing works –
is it the cynicism of old age vs the idealism of youth? I dont know – I’m 30, and it took me a good few years to learn about aviation archaeology and I’m STILL learning.
So, chill, listen, and relax- you may learn something!
TT
I have never said I would recover. I said I would seek and video and then get someone else involved. Most of this thread has turned into a “what is going to happen after you have found it” or “do you know what you’re doing”. I have been diving for quite a while but over the past couple of years I have been working with sonar, mags and sub bottom profilers so searching is what I have been involved in. One thing I have never said is “I know it all” in fact, I have actually said in one of my posts I don’t. I find it amazing that a simple question at the start of this has turned into a disussion about the politics and competence of any recovery when it’s only a search I wanted to do and I have never made any claims to know how it all works with is why I asked the question in the first place. I will think very carefully about what questions I ask in future if at all.
Ali
I’m always chilled and relaxed and I’m a firm believer that everyone is learning regardless of age or experience.
Allison JohnsonHi
There is also a nice project in NZ to return a late model Anson to the air and a static early model one – both excellent rebuilds
John P
There an “what used to be” nice Anson at the NE Aircraft Museum but due to it being privately owned and there is a bit of a problem between the owners about what should happen to it there has been a lot of rot set in. It’s a nice aircraft and it should be worked on and I hope the problem gets sorted out so that work can be done on it.
Ali
Allison JohnsonHuman remains is a problem, the UK government has a policy of not recovering the remains of fallen personel (why else the common service headstone it depersonalises death) and the CWGC has no budget for carrying out recovery and identification on its own also they would come up against national policy which further complicates matters.
The case of the two soliders in France was a dig carried out prior to building work, most remains recovered now are accidental finds in such schemes.
I wonder how many get reported during the development of an area that used to be a battlefield.
Ali
Allison JohnsonHaving never been to Gallipoli, I cannot comment on your example, but I find it difficult to believe that the CWGC would allow a situation such as you describe to continue. The rest of the paragraph is nonsense. Look at the numbers of poppies that are worn in November. People are still very aware of what happened during the Great War, and many people are making very considerable efforts to ensure that we will not forget those who gave.
I saw a documentary the other week where a group of archaeologist were excavating a trench and bunker system from WWI before the developers moved in. During their excavation they uncovered the remains of two British soldiers and the documentary followed the dig and the internment of the two soldiers in one of the many WWI cemetries there. You don’t expect me to believe that the developers would have called the CWGC to inform them of the discovery of two British soldiers do you. Those soldiers have a proper resting place as a result of a dig by some archaeologists and I don’t believe that in that field they were the only ones there. The archaeologists were working right up to the trenches being dug for foundations and working to a stopwatch. If this is happening in Europe what makes you think it’s not happening in Gallipoli or worse.
Why is it wrong for commercial interests to be involved if they can do the job well? Commercial interests have been responsible for filling many important gaps. What is important is that any recovery operation is done well, and these operations cost money. And if the recovered aircraft head out over the Atlantic, so what? JDK provided a pretty good case for allowing them do do so.
I agree that commercial interests have filled a lot of gaps but I think that the moving of artifacts out of a country of origin is wrong. It’s a personal opinion but there it is. I would prefer that our own museums benefit. Another of my opinions.
I’ll not comment on that one. Forumites can reach their own conclusions after reading Allison’s posts.
And everyone is entitled to have their own opinion and form their own conclusions. It’s a free country….. Well freeish anyway…. Freedom encompasses the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and provocative and I feel that I am free to express my opinion just as you are.
Ali 🙂 🙂
Allison JohnsonDear god but someone needs a sense of humour….PUT DOWN THE RUDDY HAND BAG WILL YA!!! LOL !!!!
Still haven’t figured out the ferret connection though. Maybe annoying ferrets is a national sport in Holland. Dunno. 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Ali
Allison Johnson“So do we really think that in 2045 there will be widespread interest in Spitfire wrecks or that war graves will be as revered as today – where are the dead from Waterloo? ”
Have to agree and you dont even have to go back as far as the Napolionic wars. Gallipoliis is still littered with the remains of those who fell to the extent of more or less complete skeletons being found on a recent visit. My point is id nothing is being done now for those who fell in 16/18 how long before 39/45 becomes just another history lesson? to be honest most of the population dont give a damn ,i have found that out since trying to trace some Canadian war graves ove here !
In a years to come ,and maybe not that far into the future,Commercial interests will dominate these issues and to you honestly think they will have anything but the mighty dollar/pound as their main concern? what price then a recovered fresh water Defiant/Spitfire/Hurricane or whatever? the last we will see of them is a container ship heading out to sea !!!
People like Allison need our support ,thanks & admiration.and that goes fro the rest of you involved in the preservation of our history…We have a saying over here ” each to his own” i wish we could have got more people to listen to that over here years ago!
Thanks for that and I don’t think there is anything wrong with looking. If there is an aircraft there and it can be recovered then I am sure an appeal will bring out a small army of volunteers who will be willing to help even if it’s to keep the coffee hot and the cooker at the campsite with the stew going.
One of the reasons I have a bit of an attitude about the US team that are going after the Hurricanes in Loch Leven is that the aircraft (BoB vets) will leave the country when there are small museums who would love an example to display. I know the museums are short of cash but if a museum like the NE Aircraft Museum got one then the money will be found.
If there is nothing there and it HAS been recovered then it’s my time to waste isn’t it.
Ali 🙂
Allison JohnsonDear god but someone needs a sense of humour….PUT DOWN THE RUDDY HAND BAG WILL YA!!! LOL !!!!
I put mine down a while ago. hehehe
Ali 😀 😀 😀
Allison JohnsonIt only wanted a cuddle. Maybe it came from a deprived background…. It should be understood and not shunned…..
Maybe it thought you were lonely and needed to show you that you ARE important and loved …..
Maybe it’s now rolling around the seabed with a complete sense of rejection and abandonment and it’s YOUR FAULT!!!!
Ali
Must have been another poor male with his boot marked dangly bits??? 🙂
CAREFUL!!!! Watch that sense of humour will you…… 😀 😀
Ali
Allison JohnsonI think this is the one?
I see what you mean. Maybe it’s better to display it in the condition that it was found to show the “war is hell” theme. I do hope the one in the lake is in a better condition.
Ali
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