Allison JohnsonAllison – May I suggest that you go and find something – put in place the means to recover it and then decide to publish the story! Problem with anything to do with historic aviation is that it’s far more believable when it’s happened. For example the guy who decided to tell everyone that he was going to find buried Lancasters hardly
did his credibility any good by telling everyone in advance – if he had found them well great!
You will find plenty of people with differing opinions to yourself – I suggest however a great number don’t have a wetsuit so I think your going to have to either prove them wrong or right ! When you get bored of Spitfires there are always the Firefly drones in Cardigan Bay !
Unlike the guy who said he was going to find buried Lancasters I published the accident reports and asked if anyone had any information that I didn’t, before I went and had a look. I don’t have an unlimited contact list of people who research WWII aircraft so, GUESS WHAT!!!!, I asked.
Thats all. Perhaps you could suggest somewhere where I could ask experienced people in the field of WWII research where it won’t be published here and possibly annoy.
Ali
Allison JohnsonTwenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. ( Mark Twain)
Allison JohnsonIs chasing shadows a waste of time?
I’m quite sure that if the ‘shadow chassers’ hadn’t found them the world population of original Halifax’s on public display would be zero. And this could be applied to many fields of human endevour.
The problem is you don’t know if your wasting your time untill after you’ve looked.
As for having to do it all yourself, well somethings are just too big or too specialist. The best thing to do under these circumstances is too seek help or hand things over to the experts; and always to remember that if enough people consider something important it WILL get done, if not it won’t.
Steve.
I chase shadows all the time. A sonar echo return gives off a shadow and it’s the presence of the shadow that will announce the existence of a wreck or artifact. 😀
Ali
Allison JohnsonChasing shadows is such a waste of time.
Do you also like the words “Show me a heart unfettered by foolish dreams And I’ll show you a happy man”?
Personally I prefer “There are many things in life that will catch your eye, but only a few will catch your heart… pursue those. “
Ali
Allison JohnsonIs chasing shadows a waste of time?
I’m quite sure that if the ‘shadow chassers’ hadn’t found them the world population of original Halifax’s on public display would be zero. And this could be applied to many fields of human endevour.
The problem is you don’t know if your wasting your time untill after you’ve looked.
As for having to do it all yourself, well somethings are just too big or too specialist. The best thing to do under these circumstances is too seek help or hand things over to the experts; and always to remember that if enough people consider something important it WILL get done, if not it won’t.
Steve.
I couldn’t agree more. I think from now on I will ask for assistance somewhere else and I don’t really want to get into any discussions where it turns out to be a pi**ing on a bonfire competition.
Ali
Allison JohnsonAli,
If this is the case then I fear that nothing will ever happen. In my experience it is always you who will come into action to get things done. If other people or organisations are involved the chance that something happens will be less than nil 😎
So far all you have done is fishing for information for several promising sites. The best thing would be to go out on your own and find out first before making things public.
Sorry to spoil your party, but this happens all the time.
Anyway, good luck but just think what you want to accomplish.
Chasing shadows is such a waste of time.
Cees
You haven’t spoilt my party at all and I have thought about what I want to accomplish. I want to see if these aircraft are still there and so far nobody here has said that there is proof that they were recovered. I have spent a lot of time reading at the public records office and the archives in Hendon and after the reading the last port of call would be a forum like here. I admit that there are people out there who have access to more information than me so all I did was ask and I think that the only shadows I have seen so far are here. In future I will just keep my mouth shut and publish the photos if I find anything. I thought that by bringing up the subject in this forum I would find someone who has some information and share it or someone who would share in the enthusiasm. The only thing that it seems to have generated is a “damp squib”. Maybe there is a good reason for the chasm between the enthusiastic diver who wants to search and the aviation enthusiast. 🙁
Ali
Allison JohnsonAli,
I dont for one moment doubt your enthusiasm, or your keenness to get involved with the preservation scene by finding something potentially of great interest to us all. However, I do think you need a realistic view of what can be achieved by volunteer groups with little or no money.
If the Hurricanes you mention are recovered, then what on earth will be done with them? An aircraft that is substantially manufactured from steel will not last very well in any type of water, freshwater or otherwise. I am strongly of the opinion that if we are to recover airframes from freshwater sites, then they should be carefully preserved, but that restoration should be kept to a minimum to preserve the original structure where possible. Mark12’s example of the Loch Doon Spitfire is excellent; there is no doubt whatever that that aircraft would be flying today if it had been recovered ten years later than it was. The work done to it has all been done with the best will in the world, but it has led to the loss of much of the original structure. Even had it not been rebuilt to fly, it would have been an excellent display in its own right, similar to the Spitfire V displayed at East Kirkby.
My advice to you is to go ahead, look for these aircraft, document them well, but dont think about raising them until you have a comprehensive plan as to what to do with them once they are on dry land. Be sure that you intended receipient for the material can cope with them, and can display them to their best advantage.
Bruce
I have never said it was ME who was going to recover them. I have always said lets look and see if they can be recovered. Don’t think for a moment that I thought that just by attaching a lift bag and they will rise gracefully from the water. All I would do is pass on the video and positions to a group that can do all the work. I don’t want to see anything just dragged out and then left on the side rot. If someone want’s to recover them and have a reasonable idea of where they are I want to do the search.
Ali
Allison JohnsonThey would need an MoD recovery licence as well Ali….not sure they would get it for export…or rather, would prefer if they (the aircraft stayed in the UK).
I have read the booklet from the RAF PMA but there is nothing in it that states that they can’t. It would be a real shame if they do as there are a number of small museums that don’t have anything from WWII that would love to benefit from this kind of recovery.
Ali
Allison JohnsonWell that put me in my place Mark!! I sit r ight at the bumend of the Spit world! My use of the word wolves was not meant as derogatory…having said that even you must admit that if I found a lump of Spitty, someone would gazump me (with unfair tactics)….its happened with hurri lumps etc. I was purely offering advice to Ali to suggest that location should be kept quiet and careful choice of who is involved. The efforts of Peter Wood (and latterly Tim Manna) in providing us all with the lovely Seafire and Peter Monk with TA805 are to be applauded as well as you sterling work rescuing loads of Spit stuff. All I say is that finding a lump is one thing, keeping it is the whole rest of it!!!
Maybe I should have kept it quiet then. It’s just like the Hurricanes in Loch Leven. There is an American run team that are currently negotiating with Scottish Natural Heritage to recover the aircraft remains and whisk them out of the country. This is awful as both are Battle of Britain veterans one ex 605 Sqn and the other 401 Sqn. Admitedly the 401 Sqn could go back to Canada as 401 was the only Canadian Sqn to fight in the Battle and I wouldn’t be too upset if it did but the 605 Sqn one should be recovered to a museum for restoration. I do hope that the Americans don’t get an export licence and both stay in the UK.
Ali
Allison JohnsonMy first flight with with the RAF Gliding Association in an old Blanik. I was sat in the front and the instructor in the back and I was 16. What a wonderful experience soaring over the vale of York. I was up for an hour and went on to take up gliding as a hobby. When I finished my studies in London I started to do my PPL at Goodwood but got seduced by the Flying Tigers skydiving center and switched to jumping out instead of flying them. Haven’t flown anything for nearly 15 years but still look up when I hear an engine.
Ali 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Allison JohnsonMagnum P.I. had that sporty little helicopter that they sometimes used to get the bad guys.
Forget what it was now……Bell something or other!.
Regards,
John.
The great big hunky guy with the lovely smile with a lot of muscles and access to a Ferrari living in Hawaii? Hmmmmm. Can’t remember the helicopter. 🙂
Ali
Allison JohnsonTo be quite honest, I wonder what your motives are. You obviously have done little research beyond reading accident cards and checking the legality of what you are doing. Your atitude is just a tad too gung-ho for my liking.
You don’t have to like my attitude at all. You make it sound like I’m up to something sinister. Hmmmmm. I wonder what your motives are too when you talk about leaving it there. Oh well…… Can’t be helped…. I’m going to have a look anyway……
Even if it’s not found then I will have fun trying which is what life is all about anyway. Having fun……
Ali
Allison JohnsonMark,
Care to elaborate? Something fishy about the Loch Doon recovery?
It is under rebuild at the moment as far as I know.The plot thickens
Cees
I wondered about that one too. They got it out didn’t they. It’s being rebuilt now isn’t it.
Ali
Allison JohnsonIndeed you are right, when I started my Hurri in the late 70s/early 80s the restorers were far more helpful in providing cast offs to a static project like mine (granted for swaps). But then again, I did not take their parts and claim to have their aircraft! Nowadays, the Spit and Hurri world will not generally provide cast offs to the like of me or Stuart as I suppose they fear that it will detract from the completeness and originality of their aircraft.
The end result is the same, pull a historic aircraft out of a lake, restore it to fly you replace X% of it (which is not insignificant), but it is a flying machine. Now if you were to incorporate the throw offs in to several static aircraft everyone would benefit. I am delighted to have original parts in my projects and do not always want to say which airframe donated them, i.e. I can be discrete if the owner wants. Anyway, Alison I would love to see this Spitty recovered (if it is there) and would help in everyway I can, however, the best way to keep out the wolves would be to form a share scheme/trust so that if anyone wanted to sell their share it would not cause the aircraft to be sold for a profit. By that method, we could actually restore, sympathetically, a very historic and original aircraft.
Anyway, it is late now and I am blathering..sorry!!
I would like to see if it’s there first. The accident cards says it went in there and what better motive should I have than to see it handed over to a museum that has the enthusiasm to get the aircraft restored to static display. Steve P says I have done little research but how much research do I have to do to get a reasonable idea that a body of water should be searched to see if it’s still there? It’s my time and my time to waste if I do so. I enjoy diving and finding something that could be recovered is a serious buzz for any diver so lets see if there’s something there worth recovering. If it’s not there I have spent a pleasant three or so weeks in Scotland playing with my toys which I love doing. I agree that safeguards have to be put in place so that the wolves don’t move in on it but what better than speak to a museum before any search operation takes place.
Ali
Allison JohnsonThis looks like a thread to jump into “headfirst” (no pun intended), I think both Alison and Steve are right (in their own ways) I don’t think there is much point in leaving A/C remains out there for future generations, if they are likely to degenerate substantially , but on the other hand the current trend of making everything “a flyer” by removing the majority of the structure, and “binning” it ,rather than let it be used in static projects , (and in so doing expose the original as a “new build” ),has no place in preservation. There is big money out there for spitfire recovery ,and you can’t buck the trend; if this A/C is there, and isn’t recovered by enthusiastic amateurs, then hard nosed professionals will get it,and they won’t donate it to any museum.
I couldn’t agree more. Once “rebuilt” and flying I wonder how long it would be before it was sent to the states never to be seen in the UK skies again.
Ali
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