Ok poor choice of word exchange “legal” for “better”.

Nothing in the posts were intended to suggest that you were doing anything illegal all I was trying to do was show you a group of aircraft wrecks that were more accessable for recovery than the group that you were currently targeting.

This is based on my experience as a diver, author and researcher.

As a diver I have stated why licences have been refused to me for aircraft wrecks in the past.

As an author and researcher I responded to your request for information on the PRU Spitfire, detailed the other known aircraft losses into Loch Ness and gave chapter and verse to clarify the position of the Defiant.

Ross

OK

SOAPBOX MODE=OFF

Ali 🙂

^ Someone needs to grow a skin.

It’s fairly clear to me Ross was speaking in general terms, and you’re the one who first mentioned “war grave.”

It’s not a case of not being thick skinned at all and my response wasn’t about the term war grave it was the use of the expression “more legal” which seems to me to imply that what I am doing is illegal which is what I was responding about. Before I started posting here I read most of the forums and have seen a small argument turn into a big bun fight where people just jump in. If someone want’s to attack they seem to think that a web forum is the best place rather than face to face so my attitude is don’t let it start. I have spent many years working for the NHS in A&E departments so how thick skinned do you think I am?

The point I am trying to make is that I am a keep believer in doing it by the book and if someone made that kind of statement to me face to face they would get the same response.

I came on here to share information as there seems to be a very large chasm between the diving community and the aviation enthusiasts and I felt that it should be bridged. Just because an aviation enthusiast is surrounded by aviation books and law books doesn’t mean that they know it all. I have a study that is full of aviation, diving and law books and I don’t know it all either but I don’t go around implying that someone is doing something illegal.

Ali

Murky waters here.

For aircraft there is no legal term “War Grave” it is common usage for either a Protected Place or Controlled Place under the Protection of Military Remains Act.

All aircraft remains under military service within British Inland or Coastal Waters automatically come under the act regardless of whether or not they contain human remains. It is an offence under the Act to disturb, remove or enter unless in the possession of a Licence issued by the relevant authority, in this case the MoD.

The Act further applies this offence to International waters to deeds carried out by British Citizens.

The only defence for disturbance allowed by the act is accidental discovery.

So if you wish to keep the MoD Plods from the door its a case of only “look and film” aircraft wrecks. Licences are rare since they are usually refused on either human remains or presence of ordinance and since this aircraft was on gunnery training….

A far more legal target for you Magnetometer/Tow Fish/Bottom Profiler is the scuttled lend lease gear in Largs Bay or off Burgh Island since scuttling removes the right to ownership by the UK/US.

Regards
Ross

Hmmm. If you check all the posts that I have posted you will find that on some of them I have mentioned the Protection of Military remains act so I am fully aware of the act. I have also worked with members of a museum who have also recovered remains of aircraft. I have the booklet distributed by the RAF that details the procedure of how to apply for a licence too.

It isn’t illegal to use a Mag or sonar tow fish to search a body of water as a search is always going to be for “anything of interest” and if that target of interest is an aircraft then it’s still not illegal. I have never said I was going to disturb any wreckage and I have always said I would video.

Are you saying that I am breaking the law by using a Mag to search a body of water?

Ali

Hi Allison,

The closest Defiant loss to Loch Ness is off Dalcross just where Loch Ness joins the Moray Firth. The Form 1180 lists Loch Ness as the place of accident but the detail and the AS/R records clarify.

04/05/42
2 AGS
Defiant I
L7035

Sgt C S U Finney, 176991, Safe
LAC E A Langley, 1055142, +

Training, Dalcross

Crashed near to shore. SGt Finney who was wearing an inflated life jacket was rescued by Sgt H Shepherd, 1114117, who swam out from shore. Sgt Shepherd had observed the crash from the air, landed his own aircraft and boarded the station fire tender to the scene of the accident. The air gunner drowned when the compressed air inflation failed and he failed to orally inflate his mae west after extracating himself from his turret. It was thought that a valve spring fracture was responsible for the forced landing.

Seaplane tender No.364 was the duty air sea rescue boat at Invergordon and it was ordered to proceed to crash at Chanonry Point and was slipped 18:23 to 20:20 hrs. No.6 a/s rescue unit.

or did your contact at Hendon give a different Defiant serial?

Regards
Ross

He didn’t give me any serials at all. He just told me about the aircraft and I have heard the story somewhere else too. There were 1064 built so there are going to be less than that accident record cards so I was going to get myself up to Hendon to read them all. I don’t fancy getting up to Loch Ness on a wild goose chase and I don’t mind reading them all.

Ali

Hi all,

Apart from the recovered Wellington N2980 R- for Robert and the
rumoured Defiant, there were reports that another aircraft had been found at the bottom (a Catalina) or was this a mis-identification of the Wellington?

During the hunt for Nessie one would expect that the remains of the Defiant should have been found as well don’t you think?

Cees

Ooops to finish the reply.

When Hunting for a suspected animal (an organic called Nessie) they wouldn’t be deploying the same toys that a wreck hunter would use. The first toy a wreck hunter would use would be a DigiMag to build up a magnetic map of the bottom by picking up and recording magnetic deviations in the nTesla range which would get them in the ball park. Then a sonar tow fish and if the sonar can’t see it then a sub bottom profiler to look through any silt. None of these toys would pick up any organics, with the exception possible of the sonar, so they wouldn’t use them. It’s the DigiMag that gets you near or onto the target but then you have to use something else to fine tune your search.

Ali 🙂

Wee Angus McDonald was out walking with his mum
On the shores of Loch Ness, and he was acting kind of glum.
He had been told of a monster and he wanted to see it,
But so far there, was nothing …….except seagulls going “Kee ye. Kee ye.”

Just when he was about ready to quit and go home.
There was a big splash and a churning of water with foam.
Angus McDonald tugged at his mother’s sleeve,
Beceause he could see something in the loch that he just didnae believe.

It was huge. It was ugly. It had a long bumpy tail.
My gosh, my goodness it was bigger than a whale.
Both mother and wee laddie, stood rooted to the spot.
They didn’t dare to move an inch, in case Nessie would eat the lot.

Nessie’s eyes looked and saw them. She knew they were afraid.
So she gave out a mighty roar and mither and son……. they prayed.
But then the great big monster had a great big change of heart.
She decided to leave them alone and with a friendly roar, she did depart.

She slipped below the surface and headed down deep below.
And when she might come up again nobody will know
So children if you’re near Loch Ness, keep both of your eyes open wide
For, if your very patient, you might catch a glimpse of Nessie coming in on the tide.

See, these swanky auto censorship databases really are only as good as the dicktionary it contains 😉

Are these auto censorship databases editable? If so couldn’t the webmaster see how it’s working and then just kill the words that are causing a problem. I can see a problem with the C or the F word and a lot of blatant ones like that but Scunthorpe and Coast Watchers with the gap in the middle of the T word is ridiculous. (lets see if it’s enabled). I have a friend who runs the forum for a car user/fan club and he has had problems with messages coming on and just advertising porn etc etc etc and I was wondering if that’s the reason the webmaster here has banned free email addresses.

Ali