That’s fine Allison, there is no rush! I will not be able to dive as I am just far too busy these days unfortunately with both Whitley and job matters.
I can put any diver who is interested in going down there in touch with a local diver who can take you out ete. I’ll gladly stump up the cash for the dive in exchange for some piccies.
Have you thought of asking Steve to go. I’m sure he would love to go up and do some video. He has this great big Hi Def camera with housing and a massive light system.
Ali
Hi Allison
Most of the Whitleys that went into Findhorn bay were recovered – I have the ditching reports for a lot of them. The others not mentioned in the reprots were probably also recovered! Certainly none of my spies in the area have ever found anything…
There is a ‘Sunderland’ in approx 40m off Findhorn. I wonder if it is a Whitley.
Fancy diving it for me and taking a few pics? I’ll be your pal forever…
Take care on the ups and downs
Elliott
Am currently moving house at the moment. Too far away from the coast in Yorkshire so am moving to West Wales so not available for a few weeks.
Ali
Hi Allison
Most of the Whitleys that went into Findhorn bay were recovered – I have the ditching reports for a lot of them. The others not mentioned in the reprots were probably also recovered! Certainly none of my spies in the area have ever found anything…
There is a ‘Sunderland’ in approx 40m off Findhorn. I wonder if it is a Whitley.
Fancy diving it for me and taking a few pics? I’ll be your pal forever…
Take care on the ups and downs
Elliott
You only want access to my rib and camera don’t you? π
Sure. Your sonar or mine?
Will have to bring someone else along to drive the boat. Do you use a twinset? Nitrox? etc etc
Ali
Paul,
Stark was posted to the AFU on 8 Feb 43. His commission is dated 15 Feb 43 but doubtless was still being processed at the time of his fatal accident.
Errol
I am a keen reader of the history of the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic wars and in those days a Midshipman was classed as a Warrant Officer. I thought that today a Midshipman already had a commission even though a temporary one. Correct me if I’m wrong here.
Ali
Definately, the T stood for trΓ€ger (carrier). A good thing the ship was never built as the losses for 109s with carrier ops would have been shocking I think.
In my book about the Graf Zeppelin there is a picture of the Ju87 which has folding wings and detachable wheels for ditching. So they sent the Me109Ts to Norway so anyone got any ideas how many Ju87s they built and what happened to them.
Ali
Germany wasn’t simply ‘stupid’ not to develop the aircraft carrier concept (any more than Russia wasn’t) it was, as ever much more complex than that. However the primary reason was that it just didn’t suit their type of warfare.
The big carrier nations of W.W.II were big in carriers before the war; and in each case for good (and specific) reason; Britain had a global empire, connected and protected by the Royal Navy; Carriers (of global capability, cold and hot) were vital. The USA had interests to protect and an advanced maritime frontier in the Pacific and the Atlantic, and Japan had to expand via the marine sphere if the weren’t content with ‘just’ China.
It would’ve consumed too many resources for Germany to try and play consequences with the RN, and a carrier was a nice to have rather than an essential. Their maritime was was essentially a blockade and raiding process; neither core to their prosecution of the war.
Hitler didn’t understand the sea, and was uncomfortable about it – one of the reasons Sealion was half-baked. Also while the Nazis came up with the land-air Blitzkrieg combined operation which was highly effective, the Krigsmarine was not so good at co-operation with the other forces (see Norway) and of course Goring hated the potential loss of any aviation control to anyone else. So there was also a large element of military incompetence too, as stated above.
The Graf Zeppelin‘s relatively well documented, and the air group would’ve been Bf109T and Ju87C; there’s good details on them. The Fi167 spec was dropped by the outbreak of war. However I didn’t realise they actually built a second carrier; the Seydlitz was stripped of superstructure in 1942 with a view to becoming a flush-decked carrier, but the order was rescinded. Liners Potsdam, Europa and Gneisenau were considered for carrier conversion, but it didn’t happen.
Incidentally the Italians also played about with a carrier – the Aquila (Eagle… heard that before, somewhere) which paralleled the Graf Zeppelin‘s experience. It would’ve had Re 2001 fighters and Re 2001G Torpedo Bombers, and had it entered service, I suspect it would’ve had a torrid time in the Med. Much better to capture and operate from shore bases.
Ref: Aircraft Carriers of the World, Roger Chesneau, as you may guess, my evening reading recently!
Evening reading? I shall never call myself an aviation anorak again. π
There is a book about the Graf Zeppelin which details, as you say, the conflict between Goring and the Navy about relinquishing any air power.
Didn’t know about the second one either.
Ali
So basically the FBI could “allege” that I ran a red light on holiday and have me on the next Continental flight to Houston ?
It only works for alleged criminal offences.
Ali π‘
So basically the FBI could “allege” that I ran a red light on holiday and have me on the next Continental flight to Houston ?
It only works for alleged criminal offences.
Ali π‘
So basically the FBI could “allege” that I ran a red light on holiday and have me on the next Continental flight to Houston ?
Not really. Anyone in the USA can allege anything they like and as long as a court in the US says that you have to attend court there even on the most flimsy of evidence you will be extradited. Not the same the other way though. This law was introduced primarily for the extradition of terror suspects and just like every law that this current government comes up with it’s very one sided. Tony Blair has his nose so far up the backside of George Bush it’s unbelievable.
Ali π‘
So basically the FBI could “allege” that I ran a red light on holiday and have me on the next Continental flight to Houston ?
Not really. Anyone in the USA can allege anything they like and as long as a court in the US says that you have to attend court there even on the most flimsy of evidence you will be extradited. Not the same the other way though. This law was introduced primarily for the extradition of terror suspects and just like every law that this current government comes up with it’s very one sided. Tony Blair has his nose so far up the backside of George Bush it’s unbelievable.
Ali π‘
Nothing in Findhorn Bay, virtually dries at low water,well apart from all the fish which the Ospreys come over to feed on, seen up to 15 at once.
Never mind. Never been there.
Ali.
Steve P
I noticed that as well from the Accident Report – The CWGC has him down as Sub-Lieutenant (A)
I will confirm with Errol Martyn
Paul
Is this one of the cases where an officer was promoted at the time of death so that the next of kin would get more money?
Ali
Chicken! π
Mind you, they reckon around this time of year, what with “global warming” and all, there’s a few “Whiteys” around Cornwall…!
Here are some of the ones that I have records on including a Bristol Buckmaster.
Bristol Buckmaster RP149 Crashed in Findhorn Bay
Whitley IV K9047 Ditched in Findhorn Bay
Whitley IV K9045 Ditched in Findhorn Bay
Whitley V N1486 Ditched off Findhorn
Whitley V N1354 Crashed into Findhorn Bay
Whitley IV K9031 Crashed into Findhorn Bay
Does anyone know if any of these were recovered or blown up?
Ali
Chicken! π
Mind you, they reckon around this time of year, what with “global warming” and all, there’s a few “Whiteys” around Cornwall…!
I have found the details of a few Whitleys that went into Findhorn Bay and was wondering if they were recovered.
Ali.
Allison thanks for that, I don’t suppose you have Sgt Turner’s other initials, forenames etc thanks
The accident report for the other Hurricane is here.
Ali