Allison JohnsonAll the info seems to match up OK, Sunderland W4001 I have down as hit a rock taxying, DBR. DD858 I’ve actually got down as capsized and sank in Belfast Lough???? Catalina Z2152 I have down as beached and classified DBR.
A propellor from the Liberator in Lough Foyle was recovered by 665 Sqn AAC in 1982 and mounted outside the Sgt’s mess at Ballykelly, I’ve also heard of dives taking place on a B-17 at the mouth of Lough Foyle, which was on a ferry flight. Quite a few aircraft went into Lough Foyle, some very close to the shore. I walked out to the remains of a Firefly on the mud flats at Eglinton back around 1987. The tail section and rear cockpit remained lying on their side and half filled with mud, along with the port wing.
Back to Lough Neagh then….The Blenheim, T2128, I have down as being from 254 Sqn who where based at Aldergrove at that time.The bodies and wreckage, again being recovered by the Henry McGarry organization. The wreckage was collected at Lough Neagh on the 30th Sept By a team from 11 Repair & Salvage Unit, and the crew were buried at Killead Church of Ireland Graveyard. So it I think it can be ruled out as our mystery twin.
Two Beauforts also crashed in the Lough: AW311 No 5 OTU, 2/4/43. The wreck was again salvaged an brought ashore on the 17th April, and L4503 which crashed 28/5/43 again from No 5 OTU. The RAF form 1180 says crashed at ‘ Sweene Flat ‘ which might in fact be Skane. I don’t know if t 🙂 his aircraft was salvaged.
All these are RAF aircraft, and it is interesting to speculate if any U.S aircraft may be in Lough Neagh.
Cluntoe, Toome and Langford Lodge all former U.S bases and all on or near the shores. Has anyone investigated the USAAF records?Thanks for pointing out that website Hurrifan, hadn’t seen it before.
The B17 was a B17-F (41-24516) which ditched on the night of September 11th 1942, and was flown by Captain William Curtis Melton and was discovered by the Inishowen Sub-Aqua Club in 2001. I have dived this also and it’s pretty much intact. There have been a lot of artifacts taken from it but the majority of them made it to the Maritime Museum in Greencastle.
Ali
Allison JohnsonMuch as I love this project I can’t help wondering just how much ‘provenance’ an ALL wooden aeroplane which has had ALL its wood replaced with new can actually have?
Interesting question to which I don’t have an answer. :confused:
How much “provenance” does most restorations especially ones that go back in the air?
Ali
Allison JohnsonI’ve asked about this before, but it really needs the right person to be reading the forum at the right time…
Does anyone out there know what happened to the recovered remains of this aircraft which once lay in the hills near Balquidder in Scotland?
The aircraft is featured in David J Smith’s High Ground Wrecks. A wing, the engines and some fusleage sections were recovered by helicopter around 1980. They were recovered for restoration, but have gone off the radar screen….
There are some pics of the site circa late 1980s at this website here…
http://www.gairney.plus.com/Aircraft/Photographs/aircraft_Wrecks/aircraft-HGW-2.htmI’d be grateful for any ideas!
Two Merlin X can’t just dissapear…
Aliens??? Or am I the wrong person to be reading this forum and the wrong time? 😀
Ali
Allison JohnsonHi All
Here’s some info I have on Lough Erne Sunderlands and other likely sunken treasures in Northern Ireland.W3995, 228 Sqn,11th Jan 43, Sank during a salvage operation along with the barge!
DP181, 423 Sqn, 11th Nov 43,aircraft bouced on touchdown split the hull and sank killing 5 crew.
W4036, 201 Sqn,18th Nov 45, On touch down the port wing hit the surface and the aircraft sank in deep water near the western shore. There were only 2 survivors and a number of bodies never recovered.
DD862, 423 Sqn, 31st May 45, Aircraft made an emergency landing with an engine fire and sank after becoming waterborne.
DD857, 201 Sqn 30th Jun 43, Crashed on touching down, but no fiurther details .There have certainly been rumours for many years of Sunderlands being scuttled on Lough Erne and I’ve seen photographs of both Sunderland and Catalina aircraft literally pilled up against on another on the shoreline, with their engines removed. The stories generally are along the lines of, all usefull equipment being removed and then the aircraft being towed out to deep water and sank. The Catalina seemed to have little use for the RAF postwar and it was deemed uneconomical to return them to the States. I’d think there’s a high likelyhood of a few of these in Lough Erne.
Also the following Catalinas crashed and/or sank on Lough Erne:AH536, 240 Sqn, 7th May 41, Sank in 80 feet of water, with the loss of 10 lives. Salvage attempts were abandoned due to the danger from unexploded depth charges.
FP194, 130 OTU, 10th May 43,Crashed on alighting during an instructional flight, no fatalities.
FP110, 131 OTU, 24th May 43, Crashed while attempting to alightand sank near Inishmakill Island. The pilot was badly injured and one member of the crew drowned.
W8414, 130 OTU, 26th May43,Aircraft made a starboard wing down approach which caused one float to dig into the water and the aircraft sinking after the resulting crash.
W8408, 131 OTU, 8th Nov 43, Crashed on take off No further details
Z2147, 131 OTU, 9th Jan 44, Crashed landing
FP193, 131 OTU, 9yh Jan 44, The aircraft hit the water while trying to recover from a diving turn, crashed and caught fire.
I’ve also heard a Saro Lerwick sank on Lough Erne.Regarding Sunderland W6075 which crashed on Lough Neagh. The aircraft was salvaged and beached with the hull being taken to Shorts CRO in Belfast where it was categorised a write off. The salvage work had been undertaken by By Henry McGarry who had a contract with the air ministry for such work on Lough Neagh.
I understand his work was pretty efficient and little may be left down there. However considering the close proximity of 5 airfields to its shores including 3 USAAF bases you can’t help but wonder. I heard stories back in the eighties of the sillouette of a twin engine aircraft being visible by pilots taking off from Aldergrove, which was allegedly a Lockheed Hudson. I also have a friend who’s Father and Grandfather worked a fishermen on the Western shore and regulerly caught their nets on something sunken near the former USAAF Cluntoe airfield, and insist it was an aircraft.
There may well be some interesting wrecks still to be discovered.
Liberator or Marauder anyone?Clive
Here is the list I have of the Lough Erne losses.
Registration Type Unit Description
AH536 Catalina 240 Sqn Crashed Castle Archdale Lough Erne
W8415 Catalina 202 Sqn Crashed 26 May 42 Castle Archdale
Z2147 Catalina 202 Sqn Crashed 9 Jan 44 Killadeas
Z2152 Catalina 302 Sqn Crashed 20 Aug 44 Killadea
Z2153 Catalina 240 Sqn Crashed 3 Dec 41 Lough Erne
AH536 Catalina 240 Sqn Sank 7 May 41 Lough Erne 10 crew killed
AH541 Catalina 131 OTU Crashed 17 April 44 Lough Erne
FP110 Catalina 202 Sqn Crashed 24 May 43 Lough Erne
L7267 Saro Lerwick 422 Sqn Sank Lough Erne 6th Sept 1942.
W4036 Sunderland 201 Sqn Crashed Lough Erne 18 Nov 1943
Dd862 Sunderland Lost Castle Archdale 31 May 1945
W3995 Sunderland II 228 Sqn Sank Lough Erne 11 Jan 43
W6055 Sunderland II 201 Sqn Scuttled 11 Dec 1946
W3995 Sunderland II 228 Sqn Sank Lough Erne 11 Jan 43
EK582 Sunderland III 204 Sqn Scuttled 21 Jun 1945
W4001 Sunderland III 201 Sqn Sank Castle Archdale 4 Oct 1942
W4036 Sunderland III 201 Sqn Crashed Castle Archdale 18th Nov 1943
DD857 Sunderland III 201 Sqn Crashed Castle Archdale 30 Jun 1943
DD858 Sunderland III 201 Sqn Crashed Lough Erne 23 Oct 43
DV959 Sunderland III 204 Sqn Scuttled Lough Erne 21 Jun 45
DP181 Sunderland III 330 Sqn Crashed Castle Archdale 11 Nov 1943
As you can see there are duplicates but I have not found any records of any Liberators but there is one in Lough Foyle though. It started life as USAAF 41-11606 then lend lease to RAF as Liberator GR.V FL954. Crashed into Lough Foyle, Northern Ireland after takeoff Oct 24, 1943. I just happen to have the accident record for this one too. 😀
Ali
Allison Johnsonpleased to read that you have already realised how important it is to have the destination arranged before the recovery. And also that the museum understands conservation. I recall that several ex Sunderland engines recovered from Plymouth Sound were on display at Blagdon Pines…Torbay air museum, they gradually corroded away.
The largest marine recovery on display in the UK is the Halifax at Hendon. Several of the recovery team who dived in awful conditions in Norway to effect this salvage were very saddened by the lack of restoration while at Henlow. In fact they were also very very angry with the transportation team who hacked the airframe into sections when they got it up intact.Several airframe techs on the dive team offered to help correctly dismantle the airframe and were told to mind their own business.
I would rather leave it where it was if there wasn’t a home for it to go to where it will be preserved and conserved.
Don’t really want to think about that Halifax as it just makes me feel angry that it’s just lying there in a real state.
Ali
Allison JohnsonHave been busy i’m afraid Allison… Can’t you use some of Tim’s toys?
That’s where the sub bottom profiler comes in. Have you seen some of the results that he’s got from it?
Ali
Allison JohnsonThat told Daz. I guess the higher you jump, the deeper you dive 😀
Sorry wandering off topic again. Best wishes for your future explorations and look forward to the reports.
The problem with any searches is the people who get involved. A friend of mine does a lot of searches and has found quite a lot and I have seen a lot of the video that he has taken but the problem is people trying to get the information from him and then going off and doing the recovery themselves. I have a soft spot for the North East Aircraft Museum and would love for them to get something from WWII but the worry is someone with more contacts in the RAF etc etc etc will swoop me and take the project off me.
Ali
Allison JohnsonGet your coat, love…! :diablo:
The parachute works better if you don’t wear a coat over it. hehehe
Ali
Allison JohnsonAllison
It usually works the other way round! Hope you enjoy your new found freedom to look for aircraft and dive at the same time… 😉
Hiya
There have been a lot of dives when nothing at all was found. There’s a guy who makes the MX500 magnetometer who told me about a perfectly intact He111 just off Ipswitch and was trying to get me the position so I can have a look. Have you managed to use your sonar unit much? Managed to get myself a second hand tow fish which is working quite nicely. Had a bit of a problem trimming it but now it’s flying quite nicely.
Ali
Allison JohnsonGood prog on history + 1hour at the mo about the German grand fleet scuttling in Scapa….did they really shoot at the german sailors as they abandoned ship?
Yes they did. They tried to force the crews back on board.
Ali
Allison JohnsonWe need a photo…. :diablo:
I’m the one in the tight shiny black suit with the tight straps around my body. :diablo:
Ali (grin)
Allison JohnsonAli – David and I could suggest a Flypast Lonely Hearts Column – think you’d be snapped up! 🙂
A girl…..that likes aeroplanes……cripes!
TT
Taken the pledge. You can get so much done when on your own but anyway we are getting off topic.
Ali 😉
Allison JohnsonDang, and here I am, stuck in the western US… male, single, really into aircraft (having done my 8 years in the USMC fixing the avionics on the darned things), and a certified diver as well!!! 😀
I would not only help carry your gear, I would be “down below” with you!!!
😉
Thanks but I have a regular buddy. I have done nearly all my diving the them including the technical training and it’s nice to have someone you know with you in limited vis.
Ali
Allison JohnsonAli, sounds one hell of a girl, probably something like Kathy Gayle from the Avengers!
I don’t think any of us are going to be able to keep up.
Steve
Don’t do any leather cat suits but I still maintain that there are stories of aircraft ditched in fresh water and there is evidence that some are true, take the Loch Doon Sptifire for example. You can’t tell me he was the only you 19 year old boy racer, in the front of something quick, and he accidentally put it on the deck and opened the throttles. I heard a story that they would put the things on the deck and fly at zero feet over this nice warm ground and then suddenly hit a cold body of water. Ooops said the lift under the wings and the pilot found himself either dead or up to his nipples in cold water and getting out quick. If that’s what happend then the aircraft is likely to still be there. If I can find an accident report that clearly says it went into that Loch then it’s worth having a quick look.
Ali
🙂
Allison JohnsonYou need to relax with a gottle of geer. 🙂
Or cover one eye 😀
Ali
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