merlin2what truth ?
Dassault closed the assembly line due to lack of orders. ‘The only truth nothing but the truth so help me god ‘
merlin2Rafale will even be more challanging once it gets a decent AESA and the METEOR.. It will be on par with RAPTOR.. This fighter with its immense upgrade potential has been underestimated for such long time.
merlin2If anyone is to blame for the Mirage-2000 line’s demise, it is Dassault and nobody else. They couldn’t keep up against strong competition from the F-16.
Why its so difficult for some people to accept the truth??
merlin2merlin2, I’m simply asking you to go away because as has been mentioned I didn’t start the thread for this purpose.
You have your beliefs and others have theirs. No one is going to convince anyone to change….so why not drop the “debate” and move on? You only want to talk about one issue, and thus you’ve destroyed what was initially a pretty good thread.Oh, and the point of a forum like this is for DEBATE (since you like to put words in capital letters…), not ARGUING….how old are you anyway? I feel like a competent adult wouldn’t say something like that.
Honestly Gray Area, if you close to thread I won’t mind because as I mentioned it’s pretty much gone down the drain thanks to certain folks. I suppose I’ll try again in the future, and maybe the difficult folks will stay away…
!
ROFL…
merlin2And the 2000 eats the F16 when it comes to interception and air dominance.
I assume you have an incontrovertible evidence for this ..
Here are some interesting comments from f-16 forum..
This comes from a Frenchman ( to my surprise) ,
The mirage 2000 is a very slick (and beautiful, to me) fighter, primarily designed for scramble interception against MiG-25s, and it is true that a Mirage 2000 can (logically) fly faster and higher than a Viper.
Nevertheless, the Mirage 2000 is fairly less powerful than the Viper, so that this advantage in speed and acceleration is negated as soon as you try to fit a decent bomb load on the Mirage 2000.
It is also true that the instantaneous turn rate of the Mirage 2000 is slightly better, but the sustained turn rate of the Viper is better, which is probably better in a dogfight, all in all. Dassault doesn’t seem to talk about that too much…
Then, the consumption grid is nearly a lie: the Mirage 2000 really burns less fuel than a Viper, but the Viper can carry more fuel and its engine produces greater thrust (its thrust/consumption ratio is better), so that the Viper actually has a better range and a better combat time than the Mirage 2000.
The air-to-ground mission grid is even worse: with eight Mk-82 bombs and two tanks, a Mirage 2000 can only carry two short-range IR missiles to protect itself, whereas a Viper with eight bombs and one tank can carry four AMRAAMs. If you want the Mirage 2000 to be loaded with four MICAs as well, only four Mk-82 bombs can be loaded then… and, as it is explained under the grid, if you try to load bigger bombs than Mk-82s on the Mirage 2000, it can no longer carry the two big wing tanks, and its range becomes pretty shorter than the range of a similarly-equipped Viper.
To conclude, the Mirage 2000 is slicker than the Viper but less powerful. With good pilots on both sides, they are probably equal in dogfight. However, in air-to-ground missions the Viper is clearly better, as it can carry a much heavier load on a longer range.
This comes from a turkish poster
Turks and Greeks are engaged in competitive dogfights over the aegean sea since more than 10 years….I know since I am from Turkey that the Greeks are deploying more and more F-16 ‘s to intercept the Turkish F-16’s and no more M 2000. The Turkish fighting falcons have been outperforming the Greek M2000’s all the time..
Ero Senin.. You can’t ignore the fact that the Viper is more balanced fighter vis-a-vis the Mirage and therefore the prefered choice of Air Forces around the world. The battle hardened Viper will leave a huge legacy remember the Israeli Defence Forces stunning air victory against Syria during dogfights in 1982 over the Bekea Valley scoring something like 110:0… Tell me who will remember or even talk about the Mirage2000 in say 30 years?
merlin2@merlin2
The reason the F16 has sold more than the M2K is simple politics, nothing else.
Ignore list time.
Snafu 352
Here is where we actually think differently..Yes, I agree with politics but this politics worked actually against the VIPER.
The reasons that Greece bought the Mirage 2000 were mainly political they had just been accepted in the European Union and France excepted from them some kind of a commitment for the support !
Egyptians only bought a small number of Mirage 2000s, to force the United States to sell Vipers to them to break the resistance of jewish lobby in the US Congress and they succeeded !
Regarding Taiwans decision to buy the Mirage…Already explained in my previous mail.
Had the INDIA-US relations been as good and amicable as today,I am sure India would have opted for the VIPER in the 80’s instead of the MIRAGE.
Had the US sold fighter planes to anyone without any restrictions and regardless of foreign policy or similar, you can be sure DASSAULT would never have sold a single MIRAGE 2000 to any country outside FRANCE ..Yes, the politics played a decisive role and still does..
Saudia Arabia has decided to acquire 84 F-15′ Strike Eagles , as a result of strong jewish lobby in the congress ,the fighters will be delivered without long range weapons..
merlin2H_K
The French poster who was a Rafale fan was actually DARE2 the notorious RAFALE fanboy .
By ‘average’ I am trying to say that M2K is a fighter that didn’t make any difference in any way ,not a failure but not a big success either..From commercial point of view probably a failure as it was not as successful in the world markets as Dassault hoped it would be. The reason for this was F-16 ! Thats the was I see it..Competitive with an F-16?? no definitely not
The Viper has been the preferred choice of Air Forces around the world who were looking for a balanced fighter that was equally good in A2A and A2G. The M2K is a light interceptor not an all round multi role fighter.
Let me try to give you another example of what I meant with average..
MIRAGE III , F-4 Phantom, F-15 , F-16 are all fighters that left or will leave behind a huge legacy..The Mirage 2000 will not.. It simply will dwindle into oblivion few years after it has been replaced.
Taiwan bought Mirage 2000-5s because Dassault agreed to sell MICAs when Americans refused to sell AMRAAMs to them.. This is a common knowledge.
merlin2Dassault produced two really outstanding fighters throughout the history ,
1-Mirage III
2-Rafale
The serie 50, F-1 and M2K (not to mention the Mirage 4000 which was waste of money) all have been pretty average fighters filling the gap between the two..
merlin2Phantom II..
Who the hell you think you are to tell me what to do?? Greece decided to buy the Viper at a time when Dassault was begging to sell them more Mirage’s , namely the year 2005 when they were looking for alternative to Eurofighters . The acceptance of the last 15 new Mirage 2000-5 MK2 the HAF ordered in 2000 had been postponed for years due to ICMS EW problems. Not to mention the serious RDM problems the HAF had to deal with when they first received their M 2000’s..
Enjoy this
http://www.greeknewsonline.com/?p=3608
The deliveries of 30 Vipers ordered in 2005 started in 2009 for 18 F-16C and 12 F-16 D and will be completed end of this year.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article5.html
Call me a fanboy?? think about that twice . The threads are here to exchange arguments pal .It might sometimes turn into a clash of opposing views. So what ? ..You don’t wanna read anything I write? Your choice its fine for me !
merlin2A Saudi lieutenant colonel died Tuesday when his Eurofighter crashed shortly after takeoff on a training flight from Spain’s southern Moron air base, the Spanish defence ministry said.
The warplane went down after taking off from the air base outside Seville around 9:30 am (0730 GMT), and while the Spanish flight instructor was able to eject and sustained only minor injuries, the Saudi pilot was killed, the ministry said.
RIP..
merlin2In the history of the 2000 and the F16, the 2000 has always been a better interceptor and air defense plane that the Viper. The 2000C were better than the first F16. When F16 finally got better (first C standard), the 2000-5 took the lead again until the block 52, so did the 2000-9 with the block 52 and also the block 60. The F16 is however a very good multirole fighter if we neglect all the ones before the C standard , but when you look at interception he would dream of the performance of the 2000.
It’s funny and also very wrong to think that because you have a bigger radar and lots of possible weapons to put under the wings that makes you a better aircraft, what a laugh riot.
You speak about the T/W ratio of the two plane and you look at static performance at sea level, what a brilliant comparison. Or maybe you think that trust it a constant value independent of speed and altitude…
If you really want to compare aircraft be a little serious.
Hellenic Air Force is flying both Mirage 2000’s and F-16’s and they decided to continue with F-16 after 2009….
ROCAF is currently studying replacement for Mirage 2000, and may retire the fleet early or mothball most of the fleet. . Technical problems, high crash rate and extremely high operational costs and availability. They say ‘ We need urgently new Vipers preferably Block 60..
The UAE having acquired 80 Block 60 recently are trying to get rid of their M2000-9’s as quickly as possible and looking for customers.
Ever heard of a country who wanted to replace its Vipers with MIRAGE ??
I didn’t.. Remember this, all the countries who bought Mirage 2000 have done so because of two reasons;
1- The US refused to sell them fighters.. India for example
2- The US delivered them fighters with restrictions so they needed a second independent source of supply..Taiwan, Greece ect . Not because they thought Mirage would be a better fighter in any way.
The reason is that the VIPER is and has always been a much better overall fighter than MIRAGE . The Block 60 and Super Viper eats -5 and -9 alive any day .
merlin2Or are you saying that Dassault is irrational, & likes throwing away money?[/QUOTE]
Dassault did it once Remember the Mirage 4000 or THE SUPER MIRAGE whatever that means .. A debris from the past on display at Le Bourget museum ..But this is another story..
merlin2[QUOTE=Danell;1628462]Bar rooms talks … the Mirage 2000 has a very good reputation, like it or not 😉
LOL. .A typical Frenchman reaction …Look buddy, you are insane if you seriously believe and try to make us believe that Dassault shut down the assembly line voluntarily because he wanted to promote RAFALE.
The bottomline for you one more time : The Mirage 2000 assembly line was closed because there was no more a potential buyer on the horizon.
The F-16 run Mirage out of business in all potential markets this is as simple as that ..like it or not but you’re gonna have to live with that one way or the other..
merlin2Mirage 2000 is powerful and versatile fighter, especially in the -5 and -9 version.
No, it was not a versatile fighter on the contrary .Actually this was the main reason why in the end it was not as successful as DASSAULT initially though it would . .M2K enjoyed all the advantage of a delta wing in high altitudes and thats pretty much everything..It has a low T/W ratio and a miserable STR. .Both -5 and -9 versions are less powerful than Block52+ and as a ground attack fighter, its nowhere near the VIPER..
merlin2Lula cannot win the election. He has already been elected for the max time possible. However, the same politcal party that he represents has a strong chanche of winning.
Anyhow, even if they don’t win that wont change a thing. Rafale has this in the bag.
So why does he procrastinate ?? what is he waiting for to declare officially the winner and sign the contract ..
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