merlin2The winner, the Gripen NG was considered better in four requirements: technical, technology transfer, employment generation and price..
I could agree with three of the requirements but technical ?? Whats that mean??
RAFALE offers a combination of performances, capabilities and technologies in A2A ,A2G which is hardly matched by GRIPEN or SH or any other fighter in that category .. RAFALE’s capabilities are documented also by foreign experts ( Peter Collins RAF) .. Rafale can easily outmaneuver any version of GRIPEN and SH and by 2012 it will be carrying a superior AESA radar and soon after that ,the awesome METEOR .
So whats left ??
merlin2That’s a 32% discount but if you think about it they have just aligned the price in euro on the price in dollar : ie they have just replace the €6.2 billion quote by a $6.2 billion one
The dollar is so weak that you can’t compete against a US plane unless you cut your margin to compensate this artificial financial advantage for the USA on the export markets.
True ,but if you come down from 8.2$ to 6.2$ you didn’t cut your margin ,you destroyed it if there is any margin left.I concur with HAWX ace that Dassault will get it back one way or the other.
merlin2A price reduction of almost 2 billion dollars is beyond belief as we are talking about 36 fighters only which is a very small order in comparison.
merlin2The US carriers are indeed vulnerable, because
1-The US Navy is obliged to maintain a continuous presence around the world, so with its scattered carriers it is not capable of concentrating its overwhelming numbers rapidly anywhere ..6 fleets thousands miles apart .
2-As fleet protection fighter the SH is massively inferior to Super Tomcat armed with 6 heavy Phoenix. The performance the Super Hornet gives up to make it a first class ground attack makes it unsuitable to fulfill the role vacated by the Tomcat. As a result, the US Navy lacks a real A2A fighter and will not have an equivalent aircraft to carry out the A2A role until F-35gets airborne. US Navy pilots were extremely impressed with the Rafales Flight Control System which gives better carrier landing performance than any other aircraft and its A2A capability vis-a-vis the SH . The result is that US NAVY could be outlclassed by enemies operating RAFALE or TYPHOON or SU-30 Type of 4 Gen aircrafts.
Without an efficient A2A fighter,the carriers are vulnerable.
merlin2The F-35 has the potential to be a very good A2A fighter but it will not going to be a complete king of the A2A roll and I don’t think the designers nor their initial buyers are focusing on that.
HOWEVER , another thing to remember, the F-35 was built for the US with other people being able to buy it. It’s never going to be up there alone when in US service. It was built with the though that Raptors, Vipers, Eagles, AWACS, Hawkeyes, Prowlers etc will all be in the air with it. It was designed as a first day stealth platform. The advantages of stealth combined with an awesome APG-81 Radar ,VLO airframe, superb range, superior sensors, superior networking, much more advanced pilot interface will almost certainly hold a massive situational awareness advantage over its opponents.
Considering the huge numbers to be produced ,the final price would certainly not be higher than F4 standard of Rafale or Typhoon with AESA..
merlin2So, what had you in mind ? What will happen in 2015 ?[/QUOTE]
Well ,I don’t have a crystal ball but let me try,the UAE could acquire 60 fighters with more powerful engines and it may sound silly but ; If the US and UK can’t reach an agreement soon regarding transfer of F-35 technology, the Royal NAVY might order up to 150 Rafales for the two new carriers.:)
Last year there was growing anger at the Americans’ obduracy over technology transfer. Britain has made it clear that without ‘achieving the appropriate level of sovereignty’ over the JSF, The carriers planned for the RN are designed to have catapults built into the deck. This means they could fire the RAFALE as well so producing the RAFALE under licence in the UK is a viable option …
I also believe that LULA will soon order 36 RAFALE ‘s against all odds ..
merlin2the major point being, the US can’t afford let kuwait fall to iran, no matter what (too much oil under its soil)
so, they could buy sukhois, rafales, J-10s and anything else, if they want, US will still stay in the area because they need that oil and won’t let anyone threaten it, no matter what.
I don’t believe everything I read in french newspapers.. Here is an article from a french newspaper few years back .. In the end, we saw what the Saudis bought ….I am pretty sure that Kuwait will not acquire the RAFALE..
Saudis pledge to buy French jets in €6bn deal
By Jean-Pierre Neu in Paris
Published: April 15 2005 03:00 | Last updated: April 15 2005 03:00
Saudi Arabia has agreed in principle to acquire up to 96 Rafale combat aircraft from France’s Dassault Aviation for some €6bn, Les Echos, the FT’s French sister newspaper, has learnt.
The agreement forms the cornerstone of a broader defence, security and industrial accord estimated to be worth up to €20bn ($26bn, £14bn) signed during a meeting in Paris yesterday between Jacques Chirac, French president, and Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabia’s de facto ruler”
merlin2There is Koweit who looks very interested. According to the french press, there were quite displeased to see that their hornets were inferior to qataris Mirage 2000. You can add the fact that the Koweiti AF was very pleased with their own mirage F1 + France being more visible on the iranian side than USA.
According to French press?? oh yes of course …
They were quite displeased with what?? The MIRAGE having better turn rates than the Hornet in high altitude ? probably yes . The Hornet was designed to be a strike aircraft, first and foremost .The absence of any serious air-to-air threat in the region on one hand and the US protection on the other ,convinced the Kuwaitis that Hornet would be the right choice as it mainly carried out A2G missions ,a combat proven ,mature strike fighter ,ready to go anywhere with an incredible range of A2G stores, and in A2G , the Hornet is massively superior to Mirage 2000
BTW could you stop with that myth of the “As soon as the JSF is available, all competitors are dead meat”, that’s so boring …[/
Can you show me where I said something like that ???
merlin2Aa I wrote already:
– Koweit AF is very pro-french now.
– Koweit where quite displeased with their Hornet inferior to Qatari Mirage
Are these assumptions or assertions ? ..If assertions so some links would be fine.
merlin2about americans not permitting it, well, they’ll certainly put up a strong political pressure, but I don’t really see how they could manage to “not permit it”.. unless they decide to invade kuwait, that is. For now, t’s still a sovereign nation… and and can’t imagine the US telling them “we won’t buy your oil anymore”… after all, if kuwait was freed from iraqui invasion, it was because of oil…
It is still the US that protects Kuwait against possible future invaders and aggressors like IRAN for example not FRANCE. Even the UKs commitment is larger than that of France ..The survival of the familiy SABAH ,the emir of Kuwait depends on the US.. Americans might simply offer the F-35 just to block the RAFALE if they want to. as an indirect way of telling the Kuwaitis what to do! Even Typhoon would have better chances than Rafale in Kuwait since the Saudis have bought it and OMAN is planning to buy it too..
Realistically speaking ,DASSAULT has no chance in Kuwait.
merlin2As for Kuwait I find it difficult to believe that they will be able to withstand American pressure to buy F-18s after all the US has done for them[/QUOTE]
Good point …Americans will simply not permit it.. Pure and simple..
Actually ,the RAFALE has good chance in Greece but the country is in no position to buy new fighters..
merlin2Three potential markets have already been lost for RAFALE,
1- Libya 13-18 fighters Russians are about to strike a deal with SU.
2- India 126 fighters Dassault has lost this one ,thats for sure
3-Switzerland 33 fighters Rafale has severe price problems,the project has been delayed indefinitely as a result of budget constraints. Gripen could emerge as the winner in the long run .
If Dassault loses in Brazil , the UAE would be the only country left.. But Dassault has 5 years time to find new customers..
merlin2Silent, because everything pro-Rafale they can think of has already been said by the French. Those who would be content to see Brasil buy either Rafale or Gripen are sounding pro-Gripen, because some of the more vociferous Rafale supporters find it necessary to demonstrate their love for Rafale by slagging off Gripen, leaving others feeling compelled to provide some balance.
LULA is in a pickle. If his military openly favors the Gripen,it would be difficult for him to justify his decision to chose the RAFALE which is twice as expensive as the GRIPEN because of political reasons . Sure ,RAFALE is by far the better fighter than the other two contenders but its also the most expensive.. Since he would be spending the taxpayers money,its not an easy decision. Remember this ,Brazil could acquire 72 Gripens instead of 36 Rafales to the same price.On the other hand, LULA wants to see his country in the UN Security Council his life-long ambition.. He certainly considers the possibility of a US Veto in case he doesn’t choose the SH. In case he choses the SH ,France can’t block him as he already inked a multi-billion deal with them. Sarko would understand this . Its a very difficult decison …
merlin2Deliveries in 2010 are due to total 11 aircraft
Less than one fighter a month ?? This is damn little for a company like Dassault, Rafale must be the most expensive fighter in the world today second only to F-22. What a shame ..
merlin2RAFALE VS F-22
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