http://www.deccanherald.com/content/232395/mod-raises-objections-over-rafales.html

Came across this one..Probably not serious..

Actually they are counting exports different way. None of Mistral/Mirage-2000 upgrade has been delivered.
I have doubts about UK figures also.
if they sign Rafale deal tommorrow it does not mean there exports become $20b.

Apart from counting methods , France is generally considered the number 4in the world.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/132961/france-could-loan-rafales-to-royal-navy.html

Wow..The topic is still hot …

My turn.

Disclaimer: I’m French & in favour of the Rafale (and know more of this aircraft than of the Typhoon). Nevertheless, I try to be objective/non partisan when comparing both fighters.

Very true 🙂

Indeed.

That’s one (good & relevant) reason. I’m not sure it’s the only reason. I think the political mic-mac with the four partners in Eurofighter also delayed Typhoon’s progresses.

Yes, but because of
– the above mentionned political issues
– and the incertainty with the F-35 procurement (UK, Italy),
I feel unsure (as for now) that the Typhoon will catch its target level.

I agree with the first part. I’m not able to comment on your view that the Typhoon’s CAESAR will be vastly superior than the Rafale’s RBE2-AA. I think CAESAR will have more range. I fear it will be more expensive to maintain and/or more prone to failure because of the mecanically movable antenna (which will give on the other hand an advantage in performances).

Indeed, Typhoon’s pure performance is better. It’s more powerful, and it’s a better aircraft for Air-to-Air fight with:
– a radar which sees farther (CAPTOR range > RBE2 range)
– missiles which go farther (AMRAAM range > MICA range)
– more thrust & aerodynamics optimised for high altitude / high mach
On the other hand:
– the Rafale seems more at ease at low altitude / low speed (namely its nose-pointing capabilities seems excellent in this area, and better than Typhoon’s)
– with its current lower pure performance, the Rafale is also more fuel efficient, giving it more range and/or more loitering time; one has to balance each avantage & disadvantage.
– should it be deemed necessary, the 9t M-88 could be fitted on the Rafale; with such an upgrade that could be made, I’m not sure one can write that Typhoon’s performance will always be superior. In fact I don’t know if 9t engines is enough for the Rafale to cath up with Typhoon on the aerodynamics performances chapter, but it may reduce the difference to a non significant parameter. NB: Personal opinion/guess: I don’t think 9t engines will one day be fitted on french AdlA/MN Rafales, and accept therefore your statement that Typhoon’s performance will always be superior.

That’s a highly debated topic. I don’t know the MMI of the Typhoon, but have had the chance to play some time with the Rafale’s one, which seemed excellent to my untrained eyes (ergonomics & sensor fusion). I also remember lots of Rafale pilots praising that topic of their aircraft.
Was the Typhoon MMI upgraded since the swiss contest in 2008? IIRC the swiss report ranked the Rafale’s MMI as superior, but at the same time it ranked the Typhoon better in terms of pilot’s workload.

Indeed. And like all fighters which don’t have one, Rafale people keep saying it’s not so important and/or Rafale can catch up with other tricks (namely: MICA capabilities). Perhaps, perhaps not, what is sure is that Rafale would be better than it is now with a good HMS. And if retaining the other “tricks”, what an aircraft!
On the IRST, I cannot comment the perfomances of the Typhoon’s one. I know the Rafale’s one is not a success. Let’s wait for it to be upgraded (if it will indeed be). I dare hope for a good IRST with the OSF-NG, because french industries have assets in such technologies.
But you must not forget the excellent TV channel of the OSF, which gives an edge to the Rafale in both Air-to-Air and Strike roles.

I totally agree 🙂

Cheers
AZ

One of the best Rafale versus Typhoon assesments I have ever seen ! very objective and balanced . Kudos to you mate .

There have been whispers that EU competition authorities have been looking into MMRCA.

And now this:

“Rafale to India at bargain prices

France has proposed to India to sell its Rafale at bargain prices, writes the French magazine Le Canard Enchainé.

Always very well informed about the background of French politics scenario, the newspaper said India has recently chosen to launch ‘exclusive negotiations’ for the purchase of 126 Rafale made by the French group Dassault Aviation but that the aircraft had been chosen because of the extraordinary ‘discount’ offered by Paris.

For France – The Canard said, citing data from the French Court of Auditors – Rafale cost “some 150 million Euro.” While to the Indians a proposal was made at “80 to 87 million Euro”. “A huge difference in price,” commented Le Canard, questioning the reasons for this discount:

“Either Rafale is sold at an inflated price for the French, or this is dumping, special discount under cost” states the magazine. Rafale has been offered at a much higher price to the United Arab which is interested in 60 aircraft. Now UAE could ask for an explanation as to why Rafale has been offered at a much higher price than to India?

A similar “game” has been played by the French in Brazil, where the aircraft has been offered at around 100 million each.

The real question raised by the article is if Rafale costs around 142 million Euro each for France, how can Dassault offer the aircraft to India for only 80-87 millions Euro? Who pays the difference in cost? The French taxpayer? Or maybe other Arab countries, interested in Rafale, will be financing the discount offered by the French to the Indians?”

Of course Rafale doesn’t cost €142 m (unless you count R&D and other ‘whole programme’ costs) so the subsidy isn’t as large as this report indicates. But figures from France’s Assemblee Nationale and the ‘Cour des Comptes’ (the French NAO) that indicate a programme unit cost of €142.3 m ($188.68 m) for Rafale, also give a unit production cost of €101.1 m ($134 m). You’d expect the export price to be at around this level, perhaps with a small profit margin and perhaps an export levy. Lower than this and it does look as though there has been a subsidy.

Still, what cost getting your first export order?

We don’t know at this stage if this is true or just speculation but the actual cost of ToT of RBE2 AESA and eventually SPECTRE along with Rafale’s complete EW kit to INDIA will be enourmous.

I was online the other night just going through some sites concerning Russian Military Aviation and one of the sites I read mentioned that the Tu-95 Bear has no ejection seats. And it continued saying if the Bear is going down then the pilots would have no choice but to jump out of the plane through the doors!!! I found that unbelievable!!!

http://englishrussia.com/2011/10/29/russians-call-it-white-swan-americans-call-it-black-knave/

These Russian flying bricks would have been dead meat for F-15’s . Bear shooting in North American airspace.

So when the ACF was cancelled, Dassault proposed the M2k mostly to compete with the F-16 that it had lost to quite recently at the time (and realising the market for that kind of fighter was quite juicy).
So in the end Dassault got its export success and the AdlA got screwed… At least as far as strike missions were concerned.

Absolutely ..The impetus behind Dassault decision to develop the M2K was the defeat of Mirage F-1 in 1976 Nato Starfighter Replacement Contest which the F-16 won. Dassault offered the Mirage F-1 with SNECMA M 53 but to no avail. Mirage F-1, designed in 1960’s was no match against the state -of- the- art F-16.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYueaFelZ9U

it flew quite nicely, in fact 😀

and, in answer to Hotdog, yes, the rafale program would exist, as it was the next generation from the M2000/M4000

I agree, the Rafale is a whole generation ahead of M2000/4000..
M4000 was a great success as it was the only western high altitude air superiority fighter in 1980’s that was considered on par with F-15.