@Mildave
They replaced it because the M45 was rubbish. As for the rest, good to see you agree there is little chance of M51 procurement 😎
How is M51 is comparable with Trident 2 in terms of payload and range?
Trident 2 is the most reliable SLBM in the history with hundreds of launches without a single failure . The M51 seems to be a pretty good missile but we have to wait and see how it will evolve.
Your figure are seriously outdated dear…
We are more like 81/87% end 2011 for the public debt.
But the main point is not here.
The main point is that with a about 17% saving rate, French citizen are among the biggest savers of the world. So a big share of the debt is owned by the French and the money stay in the family (there are even some money left to fund other’s debt and actually the French own a huge lot of Italian debt… if they fall=> we fall…)In UK case, everybody is endebted: the corporates, the state, the financial sector and the individuals.
So that the total external debt is something like 500% of GDP. Awful. One of the worst rate of the world.
Again British and French cases are absolutally not comparable.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_deb_ext-economy-debt-external
No they are comparable…Actually ,in the long term Britain seems to be in a far better position than France
1. The UK can print money which the French gave up the right to do in exchange for a stable currency. This is a major advantage for the UK which virtually ensures that the UK would be the last country standing in Europe to default on its debts.
2.. That French debt is denominated in euros and their currency is the Euro that is primed to collapse as a consequence of fellow bankrupting euro-zone members who’s deficits are unsustainable and in fact have already triggered a default in all but name, i.e. Greece HAS defaulted on its debts, with Greek bond holders sitting on losses of upwards of 50%. Therefore France being in the Euro-zone shares the risks of default for many of the reasons why Greece defaulted also equally applies to France in that France is finding itself unable to grow or inflate its way out of the debt burden, which ensures that ultimately France is just a big version of Greece and as we have seen during the year with the PIIGS, the markets do not calmly wait for debt to GDP to reach 100%+, instead the markets usually panic when it becomes crystal clear that the debt trajectory is definitely unsustainable as a consequence of the fundamentals therefore France can scream and shout for as long as it wants to that the UK has a worse debt position when the market reaction makes French official debt to GDP of 85% (real total 350%) as just as bad as if they had 120% of debt to GDP, for the markets already know that ALL of the governments are lying with France at least 350% of GDP in terms of total debt (UK 500%).
Enjoy further readings mate.
Apart from this France has serious structural problems with unemployment and competitiveness of its product in world markets.
The rising unemployment rate much higher than UK or Germany is a big headache
Also the country is in a epidemic process of “désindustrialisation” du pays.
“Nous avons perdu en cinq ans 750.000 emplois industriels, nous avons vu fermer en trois ans 900 usines.
And last but not least, the impact of high saving rates on the economy.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/09/us-france-savings-idUSTRE80808I20120109
Under these circumstances ‘buy made in France’ appeal of politicians will never work. Nobody is surprised ,with 35 hours /week and 33€/hour labor costs do you really believe ,all these frugal people will suddenly start spending their savings on goods made in France ?? well ,you may be optimistic about the future of the French economy but majority of notable economists are not !
Well, if it’s to say stupids things related to politics and economy, you should try another forum, don’t you think ?
Sorry I missed your BS post..This thread is closely related to economics and politics so if you suffer under some sort of functional illiteracy you should try another forum, don’t you think ?
The French will be voting for a new President this year and with Nicolas Sarkozy likely to lose to the Socialists, the Euro problems, France losing its AAA status, France will soon be following the path of the UK, the Netherlands and Germany and making huge cuts in defence spending.
I suspect in 12 months from now we will be reading about France reducing its order for A400, squadron cuts, scrapping of ships and tanks, further privatisation etc.
For those of us interested in defence the next few years will be quite depressing as most if not all of NATO members will be making huge cuts and there will be a lot more “sharing of assets”
France will have more serious budget problems in the future than Germany or UK.. Record number of old people, record unemployment rate and the general health system in France is eating up the budget more than in any other country in Europe.
In France the people can still retire at the age of 60 ! the same is 65 in Germany today and 67 very soon and France has one of the highest life expectancies in Europe. France has no other choice than cutting the defence spending dramatically in the coming years.
Any news regarding the decision ?? :confused:
… I think the first of the two weeks is over …. 🙁
Deino
If there is still no decision in two weeks, we must assume that both offers are unworkable for India in terms of costs. Any thoughts?
Why would an aircraft that met the performance criteria of the IAF (where several others did not) suddenly become completely undesireable to other countries if India did not order it? Price, politics and TOT also govern the selection of an aircraft for the IAF. Political considerations are inevitably different where Brazil, UAE and any other country are concerned; TOT requirements vary from country to country – UAE, for example, has no company producing military aircraft; where price is concerned, Dassault does appear to misjudge the price at which to sell Rafale – you can get a sale at 1% or 5% or 10% less than the highest price the customer will pay but you cannot get a sale if the price exceeds by any degree the highest price the customer will pay.
Not because of the price. Look, the Rafale is on the market since more than a decade and still can’t find a customer, with 11 aircraft a year the production rate is at the lowest possible level and even the defence secretary of the country doesn’t sound confident about the future of the program . This is certainly not an encouraging outlook for any country to become the first export customer of a fighter project which is a technical success but a big commercial failure. The first export customer could also be the last and you can imagine the risks involved regarding future upgrades, spare parts and the costs !
A sizeable order from India would give the boost neccessary to restore confidence into the future of the program without which I don’t believe that we will see orders coming from UAE or Brazil that soon.
Could IAF wait another 5 years or more for new aircraft with squadron levels already a long way below what they would like and MiG 21’s in urgent need of retirement? I imagine they would need to consider ordering more Sukhois and Tejas Mk1’s – always assuming Tejas Mk1 was acceptable. After that would there still be an interest in MMRCA with Tejas Mk2 and PAK-FA coming into the frame?
Sure ,but if this is true how can they solve this problem so quickly ?
Once the winning bid is announced, the MoD will convene a ‘Contract Negotiation Committee’ to negotiate a final price. MoD sources indicate that price quoted by both vendors is significantly higher than the Rs 42,000 crore the Union Cabinet cleared for this purchase.
2012 will be the year of Rafale. It will win at least 3 orders. India, Brazil and UAE.
If it loses in India neither Brazil nor UAE or any other country wouldn’t touch the Rafale with a barge pole. Therefore 2012 could also be the last year of Rafale as a viable fighter project.
What is the likelihood of Indians saying that ”Both fighters are so expensive that we can’t afford them at this stage and therefore we delay deciding about this until/after 2015 ”
High speed flight will never be obsolete no matter what people are saying here. There simply isn’t a SAM that will consistently take down high speed targets unless they are moving in a fairly straight line. That satellite shot was done by by moving the firing ship into an intercept location.
I agree, but unlike the Blackbird, the MIG-31 and MIG-25 with their crappy Russian engines could burst over MACH 3 only for few minutes..
During a damage assessment flight over Libya in 1986,which took place few days after the Operation El Dorado Canyon, Russian SAM’s have been fired towards an SR-71 but to no avail, the captain had his engines at full throttle and outrun the missiles easily.
Shall we say that Kuwait, Quatar and Brazil might not order the Rafale if the UAE does not order it? :diablo:
Lets say its highly unlikely they would order the Rafale, if the UAE orders the Typhoon, SH or additional Block60’s or delay the decision indefinitely. Anyway, If India choses the Typhoon,its a dead sentence for the Rafale because;
1- The unit price of the Rafale would not change,on the contrary ,it might even increase further and push it out of export markets for good.
2-Every other potential customer would hesitate to become the first export customer of a fighter aircraft nobody wants since 10 or more years.
Any further purchases of French weapons should bring their unit prices down considerably. Economy of scale is what keeps their prices seemingly high.
I believe UAE is waiting for India’s decision. If India choses the Rafale, and I am pretty sure it will, Dassault should be able to improve the prices quoted to this customer.
Kuwait, Quatar and Brazil might order the Rafale after UAE.
LOL looks like Dassault is pulling a Russian on the Injuns.. although at least the Russians, don’t demand as much money as Der Franzosens.
looks like the possibility of Typhoon for MMRCA AND replacing M2K is real
I believe this new missile deal with MBDA is a clear indication of the Rafale winning the contest..This is simply the logical way.
you consider avionics from Elbit, IAI, etc second class to Thales?
Well, the original avionics of M2K has been designed and developed by Thales therefore the comparison with Elbit or IAI is not justified which are not in the same league. Take a look at the cockpit of any AIRBUS or BOEING plane,if its not HONEYWELL, its THALES. In my humble opinion ,THALES is second only to US giants RAYTHEON and NORTHROP GRUMMAN when it comes to military aviation electronics in general
My perdiction for India is the RAFALE..
The commonality with Mirage2000 will result is more efficient logistics,the RAFALE INTERNATIONAL suppliers are well established in India, MICA gives more independence to India vis-a-vis AMRAAM which is US made.I don’t think that the Eurofighter Consortium might have offered a more attractive Tot or Industrial cooperation than Rafale International. India will feel simply more comfortable with Rafale. This is the way I see it.
they didn’t? couldn’t India just go to Israel for Mirage 2000 upgrades, if it was just avionics, etc? Even the Russians and South Africans had upgrades for the Mirage F1 with the RD-33 or 93
No I don’t think so, India is obviously determined to spend real money for defence and wanted to buy the best equipment available for the ageing Mirages which are made by THALES,SAGEM and the others and wasn’t interested in second class Israeli or Russian avionics ,you may not agree with this but this is the way I see it.