FarooqUS tomahawk:
YJ-62:
Babur:
YJ has a fixed intake where as both babur and tomahawk seem to have retractable that opens up during flight. The size of fins and their position on babur is more comparable to tomahawk. All three have wings that open during the flight. YJ has a distinct antenna missing in the other two.
There is one speculative picture of Hong Niao that resembles closely with the front portion of tomahawk (hanging from the top bar of a stand ), but then all three missiles have same kind of front portion. The picture’s discription at Sinodefense speculates at Russian AS-15 Kent which again is very close in looks to these cruise missiles. Here are few pictures drawings of that
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/as-15-pics.htm
There is definetly alot of chinese help, but people in NDC are making their design decision mimicking US version.
My two cents.
Farooqa couple of things, barbur uses turbojet engine for sure. Even YJ-62 still uses turbojet engine. We still don’t know where they are on the WS-500 project, there simply isn’t turbofan engine available for the Pakistanis.
I thought chinese had a whole slew of em ready. They did quite some work on Russian engine from AS-15.
What is the give away for turbojet by the way? Smoke?
That would be quite a problem if they are trying to extend range.
Not a chance, if even the Europeans are having trouble getting Galileo off the ground and operating commercially, how do you think Pakistan can do it?
The scope difference is alot between Galileo(global) and a couple of sattelites providing regional (south asia) capability.I thought Beidou had already provided that kinda capability to chinese and they adequately cover their regional needs.No?
EDIT: There was picture posted by xinhui at CDF that had atleats half a dozen different mini turbofans lying together. For the life of me could not find it 🙁
FarooqLooks like a hell to live in. :rolleyes: OTOH, your Pakistan surely looks like one frickin paradise.. especially with those 2/3rds of gdp/c
And who said it is a paradise.Show me where i said it. You are the one who is going about your economic super power status for India when it has got nothing to do with this thread.
Yes, I said ten times. And I got a load of proofs for that. If you actually quit scratching your butt with both hands and do the simplest google search on the most basic economic figures instead, I would not need to bother repeating the same. TEN TIMES.
lol. What has it got to do with this thread?
Trust me i can also come up with insults, it’s very conveneint (for example shove that ten times where sun doesnt shine 🙂 but i woudlnt be making a point there right? )
Why are you so aggravated? You said India can wipe out pakistan, i said it cannot without a nuclear retaliation from Pakistan. That has got nothing with the size of economy. India can have a economy 100 times the size of Pakistan but that will not stop Pakistan from using nuclear option when it’s exsistance is at stake.
China’s economy is bigger than india. tell me if China tries to destroy (not that they will but if they do for examples sake) will india not use nukes because it’s economy is X times smaller than China?
Just for your information, in order to achieve gross economic output comparable to India, the purchasing power parity of every Pakistani would have to be raised to the level of $20,400/year, ergo somewhere between Southern Korea and Israel. So instead of writing another tear-jerking essay about impoverished and underdeveloped India I suggest you do some serious work, because it seems you Pakistanis got plenty to catch up..
But is India a super power like you said? Can it wipe out Pakistan without losing all those good things in life (GDP,growth this and that)?
And buddy you are the one who come up with this entire economic tangent to this discussion. It’s a fact india is growing economically but they have a long way to go to be called a super power. Even then it won’t change the effectiveness of nuclear deterrance.
If you were persuaded about your forces being so capable, you would not need to resort to nukes in every sentence in the first place.
I did not bring in nukes until you used the whole “wipe out” with base ball caps thing. Why are you being so thick? Trust me i admire your knowledge in alot of matters but am completely dumbfounded why you are coming up with this kind of arguments and attributing things to me that i didnot do(i.e bring in nuclear aspect at the very outset).
Those living outside the paralel reality (read practically everyone except some Pakistanis here) don’t seem to have problem with my posts in this thread. They are not personally offensive and most important, tell the hard truth. Maybe unpleasant for your green/white painted ears, but still very true.
I am absolutely easy about how you consider my potential, to be honest. I say what I think, be it about Iran, 9/11 or your self-delusion about how Pakistan is able to cope with India.
More stereotyping.
FarooqJoey,
Long post indeed but let me try to answer you.
India does have alot of projects compared to Pakistan and they do try to keep it public view where as Pakistan does not. For example i m not aware of any H2/H4 pictures in open source. Similarly until now noone knew Pakistan had customized U-darter and there is one squadron equiped with it as well. Also, Pakistan tries to play it safe by involving other countries (Ukarine,South Africa and the most important of them all China). Incase of Pakistan the main goal is always getting a workable system which maybe not at the cutting edge but could be improved over time and brought upto the mark once services have some experience with it.
It’s hard for us to predict what technologies and from what sources were used to make babur except for not so detailed interviews like Kanwa. And i don’t think making mini trubofans is as challenging as making one for an aircraft. China makes a whole slew of mini turbofans and they started producing them quite some time ago as well. They are only now becoming very mature with WS-10 and WS-13 and various others when you talk about full scale turbofans powering fighters.
FarooqActually Farooq you are in the wrong here, your post was presented as a question and plawolf answered as such. Now you appear to be trying to insult him for doing so.
China DID play a decisive role, pakistan could not have built this themselves, it would not have happened without China. Just becouse Babur is not identical to a specific Chinese system it does not mean that it was not Chinese technical asisstance that made it happen.
Firstly let me make it clear i am not desrespecting plawolf or anything, infact i read his posts with great interests.
I am in noway saying Pakistan built babur own it’s own either. But then the interview that i posted and from what i have been hearing Pakistan was in the driving seat for babur unlike JF-17 where Pakistan had no input bar the requirements. It makes sense as well. Both countries have different strategic goals. Like the interview mentions Pakistani systems are less precise than Chinese because they made a consious decision to avoid GPS. Now they are trying to get China’s help for creating a sattelite system to address this issue.They could use Beidou but i am inclined that they would go for a home grown system created with help from China.
Ofcourse China’s help is there, but like PLAWOLF said China would not transfer Pakistan totaly mature system with a manual. However they do work as advisors. But then Pakistan doesn’t restrict itself to China when they need help they have used Ukrainians and South Africans as well for various projects. No country including China or anyother country would like to be dependent on one source for critical strategic systems.
FarooqCome on nick leave this , Golden whatever started the flame which is evident from his controversial posts; I REALLY congratulate Pakistan for their efforts to recieve a sanction-free capable fighter!
now shoo! no more off topic.
Is it using chinese radar or Griffo?
It’s using Chinese radar as of now. Next round might include chinese radar competeing with Grifo’s radar. Here is a link for translated Kanwa interview with Gen Ehsanul Haq (translation done by TpHuang so credits to him)
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/
(you can now go to BR and report how pathetic of “pukes” to have a chinese radar 🙂 )
FarooqOK, then why modernizing at all? According to this logic all those JF-17s, F-16Cs or J-10s are just waste. Build a dozen nukes and you can give up the rest.
Short term memory my friend?
Let me remind you, you said Indians can “wipe out” Pakistan wearing baseball caps (i would doubt alot of indian will be bothered about baseball caps when alot of em can’t afford toilets and farmer suicides are common news). Thats when these nukes come in handy so that your almighty omnipotent superpower cannot wipe out Pakistan without some very serious repercussions.Now it wouldn’t be much of a super power if it cannot handle such a fate from a country with an economy “ten times” smaller than itself like you said , would it ?
Pakistan cannot however use nukes in every scenario. For short term limited war scenarios they still a fairly capable armed forces which can hold it’s own.
And thanks for derailing the entire thread 🙂
I would think you have much more potential when we are dicussing Iran taking on super powers or when we discuss 9/11 consipiracy theories.
FarooqYou asked a question and I gave you an answer. Now you are trying to tell me you didn’t need that answer becasue you were already ‘driving at it’? :rolleyes:
It’s not my fault you took the figure of speech literally as a question. But thanks anyway “aggresive member” 😉
FarooqFrom March 23 parade.
FarooqFirstly, what makes you so sure China wants to share its most advanced technology with Pakistan? China and Pakistan have a very ‘special relationship’, but even special treatment only goes so far. China has always been a little reluctant to give Pakistan access to its most advanced technologies for fear of the US getting their hands on them. Thats why the PL12 ARHAAM, Type98 MBT etc were never sold to Pakistan directly, and instead a different version was designed specifically for export. Its the same with all other weapons systems China has sold to Pakistan (and all other countries). This is somewhat ironic as the US has the same reservations about sell Pakistan advanced equipment, which purhaps shows that there are positive and negatives to playing all sides, but I digress.
Secondly, although China has not signed up to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), thus it can export missiles with ranges exceeding the 300km cap imposed by that treaty, but it would be diplomatically unwise for China to do so, as they are offensive weapons, especially since China is trying to improve relations with India.
And if you try to read my post again thats what i am driving at, that China didnot have that “major”,”decisive” role atleast in some of the strategic systems such as babur and Shaheen series.Alot of people seem to be thinking that it was put in boxes and delivered with a new paint job on it.
FarooqI see one considerable difference between those two examples. Without foreign help, Israel would be crawling, simply because they are mere 7 millions of them with the economy hardly being larger than the one of Singapore. OTOH, India with its 10 times larger economy would wipe off Pakistan even if Indians only were armed with baseball caps.
And you think Pakistan would not respond in kind by throwing whatever they have interms of nukes. Ofcourse India would do the same and that would send back that entire region to stone age.
Lets say Pakistan get wiped out and India is totally devastated by Pakistani strike. Do you think India would be in any position to compete with China for influence in the region. Would they be able to sustain their economy? How long will it take them to recover from this kind of nuclear carnage?
FarooqDon’t get me wrong.. As I said, Pakistan will have a pretty potent force well suited to their real needs. As long as you quit the ridiculous idea of messing up with superpowers, you will see that you have more than adequate air cover.
The thing is, both countries have alot of bad blood and i m under no illusion that the military aspects are not centered around the capbailities of the other side (and you can debate how adequate/indequate they are).
But this would be totaly offtopic here IMHO.
FarooqI seriously believe PAF has given up the race as early as in the 80s. F-16As being the most advanced assets, lacking BVR capability, with Chengdu F-7 as backbone of their fighter fleet, backed by ancient F-6s, Q-5s and Mirage Vs, could it really be worse? By introducing 150 JF-17s against twice as high number of Su-30MKIs/MMRCAs PAF does not sink any deeper than it has been for the last 20 years, they just keep the capability gap as large as it already is. And I think they know it very well. Those few F-16Cs won’t change much.
But as long as they abandon the silly idea to mess up with India, I think they got a pretty potent air force well covering their requirements.
I don’t know if it would do anything to change your analysis (which i doubt 🙂 )
But here is what they are trying to do
70-90 F-16s (MLUed to higher standard plus atleast 18 latest one ). All BVR capable.
If we are to go by latest figures for JF-17 then 200-250 of those.BVR with SD-10.
J-10s initial number was given at 36 but there are people who are saying 50.
All this backed up by 6 Erieye+ ??Chinese AWACS + 3 PC-3 AWACS for maritime role.
To me it looks that should be able to cover Pakistan’s airspace adequately.
FarooqThey arrested some guys a while back for selling China technology for making stealth cruise missiles. If the Chinese ones are stealthy like the American ones, would a case like this happen?
Ok i don’t understand one thing. China’s cruise missile program seems to be really advanced. Even if you go by the ranges of missiles involved it’s beyond 1500 kms in some cases.
If you look at Pakistan’s program they have been struggling around 500km and now bumped it up to 700km.(boastings for home audience aside) If China can completely transfer M-11s and get away with it why not Hong nia??
There is no denying the fact that Pakistan is limited when it comes to reosurces and doesnot have the man power or the kind of resources to expand in all areas. But areas of strategic concerns are always first on the priority. There are almost 50000 people involved in six reasearch centers which are working on strategic system (nuclear,blasstic missiles and cruise missile). They would certainly want a total grasp of their strategic systems and it would make sense to develop (with chinese assistance ofcourse but not as a driving factor) based on their needs that are definetly different from China’s.
here is something from Kanwa that someone posted on another forum. You can tell me if you went through this article or not. Kanwa seems to be reporting alot on Pakistan these days (starting with that Ehsanul-haq’s interview)
“——————————————————————————–
Source acknowledged that China and Pakistan shared the US “Tomahawk” cruise missile
technologies. When the US military attacked the Taliban targets in Afghanistan in 2001, two
“Tomahawk” cruise missiles fell on the territory of Pakistan and neither of them exploded.
As a result, these two cruise missiles had no damages at all, and one of them was sent to
China. Pakistan and China shared the research of “Tomahawk” technologies so that the two
sides had very active cooperation in the following design, research and finalization of their
own cruise missiles. However, the source pointed out that BABUR’s engine and TERCOM
technologies were developed by Pakistan independently, and they were all produced in
Pakistan.
KDR predicted before that the cruise missiles developed by China also used TERCOM
technology, and the Chinese cruise missiles may also turn to use GPS/GLONASS or BD
satellite guidance system. Thus, the CEP of the China-made DH10 cruise missile could be
higher (i guess what he meant here was better)than the Pakistani missiles. BABUR did not use satellite guidance technology, mainly
because that the Chinese and Pakistani strategic missile forces have different understandings
on the application of satellite guidance technologies.
Both the Pakistani Air Force and the experts from the Pakistani strategic missile forces
believe that GPS technologies are not reliable, since they can be easily interrupted by the US
military at time of confrontation. Pakistan’s mistrust upon the US, though very much reduced
over the past years of cooperation in anti terrorism operations, still exists obviously. As for China, since it has both BD positioning system and access to the GLONASS system, the
Chinese experts are not resistant to the application of satellite positioning technologies in the
development of their new cruise missiles. In addition, they believe that in a short-lasting and
local warfare, there is very little possibility for the US to shut down all civil GPS services.
The experts from the Pakistani strategic missile forces believe that there is great potential for
Pakistan and China to initiate further cooperation in jointly developing active BD satellite
positioning system, or even developing Pakistan’s own regional satellite positioning system.(The latest visit to China’s space facility by Foriegn Minister and now President has stated Pakistan’s space program will be enhanced with china’s help)As a consequence, Pakistan has started to study the possibility of launching domestic-made
satellite with indigenous carrier rocket.
……….
FarooqEh? Tomahawk has ramjet propulsion?
That is certainly a gaffe 😮
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