this German thing has blown out of proportion. At best it just accelarated weopons program of US/Russia just like J-10 with foreign help.
but it didnot create culture of research and insititutions infact German war has inflicted huge men and monetary damage to USSR. they have to relocate factories to east and spread research centers through out the country later on which may not nessary best for research as scientist may not want to relocate.

You are truely underestimating the contribution of German scientist. 500 of them just in the single field of Rocket Sciences
http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/vonbraun/bio.html

“The brainchild of von Braun’s rocket team operating at a secret laboratory at Peenemünde on the Baltic coast, the V–2 rocket was the immediate antecedent of those used in space exploration programs in the United States and the Soviet Union”

Before the Allied capture of the V–2 rocket complex, von Braun engineered the surrender of 500 of his top rocket scientists, along with plans and test vehicles, to the Americans. For fifteen years after World War II, von Braun worked with the U.S. Army in the development of ballistic missiles. As part of a military operation called Project Paperclip, he and his rocket team were scooped up from defeated Germany and sent to America where they were installed at Fort Bliss, Texas. There they worked on rockets for the U.S. Army, launching them at White Sands Proving Ground, New Mexico. In 1950 von Braun’s team moved to the Redstone Arsenal near Huntsville, Ala., where they built the Army’s Jupiter ballistic missile.

In 1960, his rocket development center transferred from the Army to the newly established NASA and received a mandate to build the giant Saturn rockets. Accordingly, von Braun became director of NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center and the chief architect of the Saturn V launch vehicle, the superbooster that would propel Americans to the Moon.

All this is just one man and his substantial team of 500 German rocket scientists. And i didn’t even have to look too much. It’s not even funny how you are distorting and bending everything to suit your argument.

they have to relocate factories to east and spread research centers through out the country later on which may not nessary best for research as scientist may not want to relocate.

Funniest part ever in the history of this entire thread. Do you really beleive some Soviet Scientist could have refused to Stalin’s order to relocate? 🙂

E2C cannot datalink and co-ord JF-17 and J-7E…

China AWACS is still needed

IMO,
Chinese AWACS deal seems like a long term requirement for PAF. They are going to get infrastructure for R&D with the deal that they made with China.
I am not sure why E2C cannot be customized to datalink with JF-17 or PGs?? Erieye will certainly do that since PAF ACM has repeated a number of times that all PAF ACs will be datalinked to Erieye.

The question is, where was the photo taken?

IDEAS 2006.

3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed.

So Allah refers to himself as “we”?

Sorry but you lost me on that one……..

That “we” part is probably a wrong translation if taken literraly,but is widely used to narrate God’s message with “we” being used to translate the part Where God is refering to Himself.
By the way did you do a small google on that? would have been quite evident.

Sounds to me like he’s telling Muslims to do exactly what you said he told them not to…..kill others or “cast terror” onto them….however you want to phrase it.

Dude , i have said it to SOC and i m repeating it again. The problem is you can read a part of Quran and take it literally as a universal order ordained by God and to be implemented to the letter. However when you read with contextual explanation or tafseer thats when it makes more sense. Reading it without context is just like reading Latin because you are familiar with alphabets but you still don’t know the meaning.

Most of the time those suras or God’s message to muslims were revealed to give guidance on certain ocassions and not all of them are to be taken as is and applied blindly. The application of those suras is very mch subjective. But to see it in this way is more hard for people who, either like to make islam look more evil than other religions, use the suras to justify what would outrage anyone and doesn’t even make sense to most muslims(AQ and company) or just a plain fellow who would rather make his/her opnion based on literal translation than going to the trouble researching.

I’ll try and keep an open mind, but as of right now Islam, when I am pondering or what all is going on in the world, causes me more concern than anything I can think of. It flat out scares me in some cases.

I totally understand your point of you and it wudn’t even bother me if you dislike muslims or don’t have any high opinion of them. But then singling out Islam and Muslims as the sole root cause of every trouble on earth is unfair. As posted by others you ll find similar messages of wrath by God in christian text. But that is not held aginst them whenever for their actions(which may include violence). If a muslim who wants to live in peace and abhores the likes of AQ and Co. having same normal human aspirations as you or anyother normal person than it shouldn’t be hard for anyone to give him/her some space and cut some slack.

Here is the thing, most muslims do feel strongly about what goes on in middle east and other muslim nations but that doesn’t necessarily mean they love Osama Bin Laden or Musab Zaqawi who kill more muslims than non-muslims and justify it too. And certainly not because a sura (taken out of context) seems to be telling muslims to hate and kill non-believers.

That’s the great thing about this the country I live in though……those who wish to practice Islam are free to do so, and I’m free to practice my Christian faith (although I would hardly same I’m overly religious right now anyways.).

Indeed there are many great things about this country and i am totally grateful to this country for all those things that i too have expereinced. And it would hurt me or sadden me just as much if some ordinary person on the street gets hurt here in USA by some terrorist. But then that doesn’t mean i will agree with USA’s entire foriegn policy or all their actions. My dislike of those actions have got nothing to do with my faith (and i am hardly religious). Now what is really furstrating here is when people attribute my every other belief or opinion to my faith and what is in Quran regarding disbelievrs and such.

Islam has me so nervous though that I’m curious to learn more about where the hate stems from…..

Hate is a very human emotion, and i think it’ll be hard to find someone not capable of it. It cuts across all the boundaries of race and religion. Now i am not sure which episode of hate in islam or by muslims are we talking about here. But trust me hate is very much part of many sections of this very society here in US.

I know I’ll never be accepted by Muslims, but perhaps I can come to understand just why that will always be the case.

lol. first off you don’t need acceptance by anyone. As long as you don’t hate my guts for some obscure stereotype that you have in mind, i am more than willing to buy you cup of coffee discuss our opnions and respectfully disagree where i have to. That would certainly not involve me blowing stuff or you bombing me from the sky.

What about these:

What you totally ignored in your frenzy to post some more ‘evidence’ from quran was the point that i was making. Read again and try to see what i was saying.
i.e. islam is not different form other religions, specially christian judeo religions that precede it , in preaching or condoning ‘wrath’ and ‘mercy’ at the same time. So where do you disagree with me??

3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed.

This is God , talking to believers and promising that He will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. It’s not like God is telling muslims to do it for him. You should read up the rest of quran too. There are plenty of occasions which detail even more horrific end for people who indulge in anti-social activities (e.g being unfair in dealings,liar,backbiting,being cruel to weak and upsurpers of their rightful due ). Such is the tone of Quran and it’s suras, not just necisaarily against ‘unbelievers’.
But hey i guess that would be a lot of work for you to read up in right context than randomly nit pick verses!

4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil.

Again see it in the right context. The idol worshippers of Makkah who were doing everything to wipe out islam. After Makkah was conquered everyone was pardoned and noone was forced to accept islam (all the idols were removed from kaba though).
But even if you have used a wrong sura to make your point you might find more which will reinforce what you are saying (and i didn’t deny it either !!!)

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Again see it in right context. Notice the word “enmity” there. There were divsions along religious and tribal lines. Blood fueds and alignments based on these lines. This seem to be saying that if people become your enemies again (and we are talking about the kind of enemies they had back then.lots of blood shed) then fight them or kill them and the rest. Do read up the history regarding the treatment meted out to the early muslims by these ‘enemies’.

So tell me what part is wrong here? If someone becomes your blood enemy again why is it a problem if you are allowed to attack em too?

4:91 Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

Again see the bold part. If someone has forsaken peace then you are allowed to kill them just as they desire to kill you.(and i m sure there is a context to this sura as well just like the others. it’s funny when people take them out of their historical context and quote them to make a point(propganda would be a better word ), muslims and non-muslims both )

This next one is good, it pretty much makes a Sunni-Shi’a civil war illegal:

4:93 Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hell for ever.

But then again, you ll find people who will find reason even in branding fellow muslims as apostates and killing em. yours truly Abu-Musab and Co.

Kill Christians:

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

God is warning against his wrath. You should read creafully i am sure you ll find better passages that you can make a point with.
By the way here is another one regarding Christians
Allah says in Surah 5, verse 82:

Do note that use of term “who believe” for christians and implictly for jews.

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

Do you know when it was revealed? Cause i don’t know. If you read Quran then you are supposed to know when and on what occasion the sura was revealed. For example there is some sort of disagreement against a the treatment of a tribe and a sura would try to answer that. It wasn’t like in all cases others were treated harshly. There were times when ppl were treated with mercy. And i have been saying that al along. That you will find reference to both sorts of treatments. Now i don’t know what you are trying to prove by quoting all this cause that already shows what i have been saying all along (atleast a part of it)

Allah gave the Jewish people land:

10:93 And We verily did allot unto the Children of Israel a fixed abode, and did provide them with good things; and they differed not until the knowledge came unto them. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ.

Should I continue?

Well there are alot of examples regarding Jewish people and Christians as people of the book. Examples that say these people choose to go astray from God’s path even though they were given all the blessings (fixed abode , God’s law etc).
What was your point by the way regarding this quote?

O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.

Surah 2 Verse 40

God did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of ‘Imran above all people,-

Offspring, one of the other: And God heareth and knoweth all things.

Surah 3 Verses 33-34

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: “I will make thee an imam (religious leader) to the Nations.” He pleaded: “And also (imams) from my offspring!” He answered: “But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers.”

Surah 2 Verse 124

and then

…They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of God. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of God and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.

Surah 2 Verse 61

But then Quran makes exceptions as well.

Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, “there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans).” but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.

Surah 3 Verse 75

My problem with Islam is not that it condones terrorism which I don’t think it does.

What it does do is preach intolerance for others…..including Christians as well as those of the Jewish faith…

There are many passages that seem to promote the punishment of those who are not believers in the Islamic faith.

Take, for example Sura 9:29 which states:

You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth – among those who received the scripture – until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

Of course that’s translated into English, but what does it say to those who practice the Islamic faith? It sounds like it’s telling them to fight against those who are non-believers and that Islam is the only religion of truth.

Doesn’t sound like its the tolerant religion that some would claim to me…..

I would never disrespect a Muslim because of the religion they preach nor would I ever harm a Muslim because of that faith, but I must admit I’m quite alarmed at just what the true meaning is within the Islamic faith….

It makes me quite nervous….

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura9.htm – Translation link

Phantom,
There are a lot of ways you can interpret what you have quoted as above. In the very begining it seems to be saying ‘fight back’ and not attack. In the early stages of Islam there was alot of warfare within the region where Islam first took shape. Alot of that included various jewish tribes who happened to be on the other side of muslims and their allies. This is mostly directed towards them.

Then it seems to be talking about ‘jizia’ or tax that was imposed on all non-muslims in return for their protection guarantees and exclusion from compulsory military duty. Now you can certainly take issue with the imposition of jizia but it’s certainly not punishment for not believing.

Just like any religion , it’s history and it’s followers, specially like the other two judeo christian religions you will find both examples of mercy and wrath.

In the end , religion(which includes all religions) or no religion man will find a way to justify their violence and not all the time will it be justifiable.

Phrozenflame – does ‘jihad’ indeed litterally translate as ‘struggle’? I thought i picked that up somewhere, but my Arabic doesn’t go much beyond choukran, yalla yalla and a few obscenities.

Derivative of ‘jee-hud’ (hud is more like ‘hut’ with d having a ‘th’ sound as in ‘the’)
literally means struggle.

Obscenties are always an interesting start for learning a new language . 🙂

Ah, but here in America, if you don’t like the guy or his followers, you can elect someone else. Let’s see a nation like Iran try that…oh wait.

So as long as neo-cons and evanglists are liked by those ‘here in America’ they should be allow to preach hatred and follow their policies and should not be punished according to the rules you are establishing here??

You’re absolutely right. It’s not the people like Bin Laden that are the problem, but rather the “scholars”, Imams, and Mullahs that are preaching hatred and violence. Those are the people that should be targeted and eliminated.

Indeed there are scholars who are problems. Lots of em too. I have lived in Alabama for 4 years and half the state thinks just like those ‘scholars’ and ‘Mullahs’. Lets start your crusade aginst hatred at home, fair enough?

By the way how many times have you been to Pakistan? what do you know about the society and it’s different segments and how you came to the conclusion that Pakistan is big enough a threat that it would justify going to the trouble more than Iraq and Afghanistan combined?.

The West would have a far different impression of Islam if it was a bunch of Russians that flew planes into New York City. Or bomb Israeli market places. Or attack Iraqi police and military recruiting centers.

West’s impression is not necessarily driven by what is right or wrong. Is it? Before Islam became object of affection ,it used to be just ‘smelly sub- humans’ in colonies on the far side of the earth. Then west had problem with communists. And now the Islamic terrorists. By the way thanks for all the guns and money and satellite images you guys were giving to the same guys. Go ask your then president Mr Regan saying on TV ‘I am Mujhadeen’.

No, I see no reason to put people on the ground when you can take out your target with a JDAM or LGB.

And that would solve what? You are saying as if it hasn’t been done before. I mean come on dude just look at Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq and even in Pakistan.

I have no problem with someone pointing the exact dynamics of terror and whatever islam as a religion or Pakistan as country contributes to it but just passing by leaving a remark about ‘bomb em all’ or ‘invade em’ without thinking about the reasons even doesnt reflect positively on you.