FarooqNick,
Let me tell you few things here.
1) I have no problem admitting repeated invasions of India at the hands of muslims creating social problems for natives. But then saying it is just muslim invasions that are responsible is very simplistic view. It has been 60000 years or so modern humans embarked outside africa and colonized the world. They fought , destroyed and sometimes assamilated each other. Looking at the history of evil(that is violence) in the light of one single religion is just like going into a haystack and picking one stick. I diasgree with this notion.
My take on the issue is that *any* invasion would cause problems for the group of people actually conquered. What about the early tribes from central asia when they first came to Sub continent? was it not at the expense of dravidian culture? What about English when they came to subcontinent, i am sure you would see creation of Pakistan as their consipracy and biggest mistake (and i would naturaly disagree with that). Why don’t we hear about such episodes from you folks?
Has there been no assamilation of the same “muslim barbarians” in Indian subcontinet? How do you explain that when a pathan chief conquered and plundered Moghul capital in later days and gouged out his eyes it was local marathas who saved him and killed his nemesis? If it was not their king then why would they do it?
It is human history, people moved about killed ,conquered and in some cases helped and made peace. Sometimes assamilation and sometimes some groups were wiped out.
2)I totally understand qsaark started it and i would rather we be discussing this in General discussions. But some of your whitewash against muslims just dumbfounds me.The way you generalize is appaling i am sorry to say. I hate extermists just as much as you do. Any sort of extermist. Muslim,hindu,christian. You seem to be actually defending hindu extremeists, where as i have spent quite some time debating with same animal on our side.
3)Regarding Satti, tell me was it not a practice that was done during peace time even in pre-islamic India? Did it not exist in any form? Muslim warfare could have affected one part a group or period. You can’t have a bride killing herself just like that. During 1857 in delhi alot of muslim ladies jumped into water wells to protect themselves. It does not start a tardition that would become part of individual families (wome burning themselves when husband dies).
4)I did not insult you in anyway. I do see some of things that you wrote as gross generalizations and insluting towards my religion , people and country. I would rather sit here and talk about peace with you or learn something from you useful or even share something i know. Just in early 1900s europeans were cutting each other thorats and world saw massive carnages in WW1 and WW2. Now you can’t even imagine that happeneing. I do believe same could be achived in Sub continent. It will only happen when you and I will desist from pointing fingers and finding “inherint inhuman flaws” in eachother. I have had a Sikh roommate and several hindu colleagues at work and even firends. I never had to explain or prove i am not some violent monster who wants to do all those things you accuse muslims of. If in actualy practical life millions of people like me can exist on both sides then Subcontinent does not have to be hostage or mindless violence.
FarooqLTTE is a terrorist org and has had no truck with India since RG killings. Unlike Pakistan which trained, supplied and nurtured Taliban and Al-qaeda in the art of terrorism and still continues to do so. LTTE is fighting for TAmil rights not Hindu rights you muslim pig. Why is Anton balasingham a leader of LTTE if it is a hindu organisation?
Since RG killings? So India did have something to do with it right? When it suited India or so it though.
Thanks for showing your true face by calling me a MUSLIM PIG
I dont think i need to reply to you anymore.
FarooqThe Mugals were a spent force who were busy killing their brothers and sisters. Of course the glorious mugal tradition is still carried out in your country and I am sure pakistan will continue in that tradition for a long time.
So there has been no blood shed between Hindu Monarchs, tribes, castes? India is devoid of this glorious tradition, correct?
Funny muslims are hated but their population has increased in India while the population of all minorities in pakistan (where I presume they have equal rights :rolleyes: to way of life and property ) has reduced drastically due to planned pogroms and forced conversions.
Which pogrom are you talking about dude? Seriously go visit Sindh and you will find enough Hindus and Muslims living side by side. I have my origins from interior Sindh. Not a single hindu was killed in our area at the time of partition. My Grandfather and others not only protected entire families of hindus but ensured the safety of the ones who wanted to go to India. Some even came back to sell their properties and take back their belongings they had entrusted on your evil “muslaman”. How many hindus were standing there protecting Baburi Mosque is well known to entire world.
You need to go visit Lahore and see how openly and without any problems Sikh Yatri visit their shrines. Or for that matter go visit Panja Sahib. And this is just half century after the terrible carnage at the time of partition.
No one needs to look further than the pathetic cricket team to see the influence of islam in pakistan and Indian cricket team is a good example of harmony despite all the contradictions. To sum it up, Pakistan == Citadel of islam and barbarians. India == Progressive nation.
Yeah you are right. I hope Irfan Pathan and his family survives the next Modi adventure.
FarooqI have no intention to join the debate but please don’t question people’s intelligence. Your post is making Zia sound like a victim rather than a villain. Taliban is a creation of Pakistan army and its intelligence agencies. Its correct it consisted initially of mujahideen who fought the Russians but later was used by Pakistan for its own interest in afghanistan and even Kashmir.
And India won’t indulge in any such action if it was in it’s interest. Leave India talk about any other nation? But hey when it comes to Pakistan you will sweep everything under the carpet and find it single most exclusive crime against humanity and what not.
Do read up India and the role it played in the begining with LTTE. I read an interview with one of your army chief during Kargil episode that India learned their lesson with LTTE, the hand that feeds such outfits is often bitten by them. By the way LTTE if i am not wrong, is the early pioneers of suicide bombing techniques. An organization fighting for freeing HINDUS using suicide bombings. But no that won’t turn any heads, why should it. You wud never wash your dirty laundry in public would you.
What were your troops doing in Afghanistan??
Playing same dirty game India is playing by having multitude of consulates in Afghanistan. How many do you really need by the way or there is no other purposes for them? In a PBS interview Armitage admitted Pakistan’s concern about the role these consulates are playing. And that is perfectly normal in geopolitical scenario involving many nations and super powers. I dont sweat over it am neither surprised. But hey what surprises me is “moral” warriors like you who are so outraged when Pakistan is involved.
There is no country in the world which has used its own civilians as cannon fodder to fight wars or to enhance its strategic depth as pakistan has both in afghanistan and Kashmir.
There are many countries which would do just that or anything to ensure their survival. You are just blinded. Even India would. There is a reason India backstabbed Iran when Uncle Sam exerted some pressure. Now the IPI deal is undershadow because of just that reason even though India badly needs energy resources.
Even during Kargil when its soldiers/para-military were fighting, your general was sitting in china and claiming they were mujahideen. Didnt have the guts to accept that the men who were dying were his own.
There are indian soldiers still languishing in Pakistani jails from 1971 war. What did your generals did so far for them? Was reading a letter(on BR ofcourse) regarding a undercover agent for Indian agencies who was caught and India refuses to own him.
It depends on the nature of operation. No one would own upto or try make clear when sensitive operations like these are involved. You can make an issue of honor and what not out of it but then i dont blame you. It suits you perfectly. “Psy OPS” 😉
You guys got a whole thread going for training yunguns. good going guys!!
FarooqNick,
It is really amazing to see how for you, your entire history starts with “musalman” coming and spoiling the milk and honey land of hindustan and teaching poor innocent hindus every evil thing including things like Satti. I am sure a little more spin and you can also blame them for caste system too. You spend quite some energy on this forum and almost every other post has to have your hatred for “musalman” dripping from it one way or the other. If it was bharat rakshak i am sure i wont be too surprised but i am because how blatantly and consistantly you are able to do it here.
Every thing i have read so far about Satti does not in anyway blames muslims for promoting this evil practice. Quite a few muslim rulers are actually known for banning it in India. This is the very first link that i was able to find on the origins of Satti written by Dr. Jyotsna Kamat
http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/women/sati/whysati.htm
“The Mahasati (the great Sati) or the Sahagamana (joint departure) system of a cremating the woman alive on the death of her husband is an ancient custom in India. Scholars of the Puranas trace the origins to the suicide of Satidevi in the Yajnakunda (sacrificial fireplace) of Lord Brahma, while a few attribute it to the pre-caste Vedic system of Indian society. In the Indian mythology of the Mahabharat, there is the instance of Madri dying on the funeral pyre of husband Pandu, leaving the children to the care of the first wife Kunti. The feminists proclaim the Sati system as a cruel institution established by men against the womankind, while the lower-caste in India have felt it as another means of torture taxed on them by the upper-caste Brahmins. “
Your holy book and history mentions this practice but in your wisdom you ahve to find something to do with your bad evil “muslim”. Amazing stuff that after this kind of thought process you have the gal to make fun of others for being indoctirnated and brainwashed. To me your zeal and hatred is no different than any taliban’s.
FarooqKev35,
Do you by any chance live in the vicinity of Bradford? 😮
I actually see where you are coming from.I have heard similar stories from others (who share the same demographics). It’s really puzzling for me being in US and seeing exact opposite of that in local muslim community.
But i tend to disagree with the notion of complete islamization . It would take more than petty criminal behaviour to “take over” a country 😀
FarooqKev35,
Do you by any chance live in the vicinity of Bradford? 😮
I actually see where you are coming from.I have heard similar stories from others (who share the same demographics). It’s really puzzling for me being in US and seeing exact opposite of that in local muslim community.
But i tend to disagree with the notion of complete islamization . It would take more than petty criminal behaviour to “take over” a country 😀
Farooqsealordlawrence and I are not often known to agree on things but one has to think he is right in the words he has chosen to write above.
Tonight, at 7PM in the district in which I live, a large multicultural town in the Midlands of England, we were treated to the unpalatable spectacle of Asian youths celebrating Benazir Bhutto’s death by dancing, cheering and the letting off of a large number of fireworks. These Asian youths were, in the main, born in this Country and are British Passport holders. With this mindset apparently becoming ever more popular, I think we have no choice other than to fear for the future.
Regards,
kev35
Kev35,
A large number of Pakistani ex-pats support Nawaz Shareef and that could have been one reason for reprehensible act. In 1989 when General Zia-ul-Haq died and Benezir came back to Pakistan her supporters were equally delirious in celebrating his death. I know it’s cruel but not sure how much it has to do with Islam which is what Sealordlawrence was refering to. (And from my repeated interaction with him and what he posts, it is my understanding that he likes to refer to the entire religion evil and muslims as following that evil idealogy). Would like to know what are your thoughts.
Farooqsealordlawrence and I are not often known to agree on things but one has to think he is right in the words he has chosen to write above.
Tonight, at 7PM in the district in which I live, a large multicultural town in the Midlands of England, we were treated to the unpalatable spectacle of Asian youths celebrating Benazir Bhutto’s death by dancing, cheering and the letting off of a large number of fireworks. These Asian youths were, in the main, born in this Country and are British Passport holders. With this mindset apparently becoming ever more popular, I think we have no choice other than to fear for the future.
Regards,
kev35
Kev35,
A large number of Pakistani ex-pats support Nawaz Shareef and that could have been one reason for reprehensible act. In 1989 when General Zia-ul-Haq died and Benezir came back to Pakistan her supporters were equally delirious in celebrating his death. I know it’s cruel but not sure how much it has to do with Islam which is what Sealordlawrence was refering to. (And from my repeated interaction with him and what he posts, it is my understanding that he likes to refer to the entire religion evil and muslims as following that evil idealogy). Would like to know what are your thoughts.
FarooqGuys it’s really disappointing whenever i click on a missile development thread specifically Pakistan or India related i end up reading political discussions. Nothing wrong with that but that just derails the topic. Without going into blame game of who starts that here is a link to general discussion forum
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=8
Please help yourself and open a thread and invite others. I am sure anything could be discussed if the venue is appropriate and participants mature enough.
FarooqGuys,
There is no doubt in my mind that it is a tragic end for Benezir Bhutto (just like most of her family i.e. father and two brothers), but lets not cloud and mix the reality of Benezir Bhutto the leader and her misrule with the tragic end she met (totally condemnable).
Some comments about how bad her “loss” is for Pakistan,women and democracy do not stand upto even slightest amount of scrutiny. I do not wish to start on many things that i know not just from highly artificial BBC and CNN interviews with Benezir. I think it would be inappropriate for me to write them down here given what has just happened.
On the topic, though it does show how great the menace has become. I wish she had been a little less careless with the way she choose to conduct her campaign specially after the loss of 140 lives on the day one of her arrival. This has caused severe confusion and ripples are being felt at international level.
FarooqGuys,
There is no doubt in my mind that it is a tragic end for Benezir Bhutto (just like most of her family i.e. father and two brothers), but lets not cloud and mix the reality of Benezir Bhutto the leader and her misrule with the tragic end she met (totally condemnable).
Some comments about how bad her “loss” is for Pakistan,women and democracy do not stand upto even slightest amount of scrutiny. I do not wish to start on many things that i know not just from highly artificial BBC and CNN interviews with Benezir. I think it would be inappropriate for me to write them down here given what has just happened.
On the topic, though it does show how great the menace has become. I wish she had been a little less careless with the way she choose to conduct her campaign specially after the loss of 140 lives on the day one of her arrival. This has caused severe confusion and ripples are being felt at international level.
FarooqSOC,
Thanks for very elightening reply. And congrats on becoming a Rocket scientist 😀
Abhi,
As i have said before there was news in 2002 that indicated Pakistan had tested MIRV system.
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Pakistan/Missile/3068_3288.html
As per the statement of Dr. Saraswat, the accuracy of this system is 99 %. Hence, in order to maintain the same threat level against India via a brute-force saturation attack, China (and Pakistan) may have to increase their arsenal by 1 x 100 = 100 times. This implies a Chinese arsenal of 1 lakh ballistic missiles that too dedicated only for India.
Secondly in your post you have said China would need 1 Lakh (100,000) missiles to overwhlem India’s ABM system. Are you for real mate :confused:
If each BM interception requires one endoatmospheric and one exoatmospheric interceptor then that means India is going to have 200,000 interceptors deployed? :confused:
Farooqsealordlawrence, to counter only Chinese threat, 200 such exo-endo missile pairs may have to be developed. Presently, most ballistic missiles do not have an ECM facility and China and Pakistan are not known to possess MIRV missiles. Thus, the BMD will be effective for the long-term.
Regarding cruise missiles, they can be countered by the Barak in India’s inventory and possibly Akash. As per Dr. Saraswat’s statement, the BMD system will also be designed counter cruise missiles.
Abhi,
I think(from memory) both China and Pakistan conducted MIRV tests in 2002. One japanese daily had reported “successful” test for Chinese MIRV system on DF-21(??). Also, India has MIRV on it’s Agni is i am not wrong.
I would think all three countries have MIRV as well as some form of decoy technology incorporated in their RVs by now.
Few general questions (for Sean specifically :p ).
-What happens if a BM armed with a nuclear warhead is intercepted? What is the general trend in dealing with such a scenario? Is the missile programmed to explode the warhead on interception?
-What would be the aftermath of a successful interception in which BM prematurely explodes in the atmosphere over/near target area.
-What would be the case if the warhead is not triggered but missile gets hit? Would the explosion from a kinetic hit trigger the warhead?
FarooqWhat exactly is meant by nuclear capable here? Is there a benefit in having nuclear warhead for SAM?
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