FarooqKaduna,
I think you have missed the train by an entire day. If you would scroll up and go back a page you would see what TPHUANG is saying.
IGNORANCE:
1)A-DARTER is not a fifth gen missile.
2)Pakistan does not use/used any darters.
3)South Africa is not capable of producing an air launched cruise missile.
4)Pakistan does not have a strong defense relationship with anyother country which could be source for it’s defense development projects other than China.
Arrogance:
1)Pakistan is some what bound to only receive “rejected” projects from China and Pakistan can in no way look to other sources and has not done so in past.
Me and other people have shown him enough evidence and examples of each one of his points to be incorrect but he thinks his honor has been violated by some stupid kid on someother forum and that he has to come here with his ridiculous claims to restore it.
On the H2/H4 developments, both are A2G munitions and are derivatives of South African MUPSOW or RAPTOR series.
Farooqwhere?
why don’t you show a picture of JF-17 using A-Darter? I have been saying right from the start that JF-17 will use Chinese avionics + weapons. We’ve been hearing these rumours about darter for ages, has it happened? no.
My Lord!! How many times ACM have mentioned 5th gen WVR and given list of missiles that includes A-Darter? You call this rumors? If you are willing to dismiss ACM PAF as petty rumor monger than i guess there is nothing we can argue on.
from your south african air force link, all it shows is a missile that’s still in development, great!
missilethreat has never been none as a solid source
You are willing to bet on a transfer of a “cancelled” chinese cruise missile program but something that has been developed from MUPSOW which has been mentioned in Pakistani context time and again you feel reluctant. I am dumbfounded.
why would I hear of a non-impressive cruise missile that is still in development? Do the honourable thing? Let’s see:
There is far more military cooperation bw China and Pakistan
China has multiple generations of ALCM in service (including ones that go in the 1500-2000 km range)
From all look of it, Barbur got a lot of inspiration from Chinese projects.
Which Chinese ALCM programs ? We hardly know any to begin with. They are all secret. The YJ-XX based CMs hardly resemble Babur or Ra’ad in many ways.
The ballistic missile programs of Pakistan also got their roots from China.
But now, Raad somehow got roots from this South African cruise missile still in development.
Blasstic missile program and Cruise missile program are related ? You mean BMs sharing propulsion guidance and designs?? I would think they are world aparts. Pakistan has been acquiring South African technology specially H2/H4 long before Babur came into picture.
I really don’t see where we are going with this argument. You are not willing to look at it in an objective manner and being argumentative. This is my last post on the matter. You are entitled to your opinion and i respect that.
Farooqpoint to some then. Don’t give this JF-17 using Darters, because it’s not going to happen. The F-7s don’t use Darters. The J-10 are not going to use darters. And F-16s are not going to use Darters.
A-Darter has been mentioned for JF-17 time and again by ACM himself. Please don’t tell me you and your “alleged” source know more about JF-17 program than ACM PAF. There has been alot that has been said about Mupsaw and raptor exports to PAF. DefenseJournal(a pakistani military magzine) wrote about H2/H4 connection with the former. And even more than that people who are closely linked to these programs and PAF have talked about it regularly, but you won’t happen to know them because you are busy swallowing your “chinese source” hook line and snicker.
your link doesn’t shown anything, google doesn’t show anything. Why don’t you bring up a missile that actually joined service somewhere.
http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/61/torgos-cruise-missile
Search for “torgos cruise missile” and you will find enough links . let me try again to give you some more links.
http://www.csbaonline.org/4Publications/Archive/R.20050310.CruiseMiss/R.20050310.CruiseMiss.pdf
http://www.missilethreat.com/repository/doclib/20001000-IFPA-cruisemissilepuzzle.pdf
Pictures of both Mupsow and Torgos included
http://www.nukestrat.com/us/afn/NAIC2000.pdf
FarooqGreat picture. Tejas would have looked even better if the color was a little lighter than what it is now. Still looks superb!
Looking forward to more such pictures.
FarooqIt’s a Chinese source.
As for U-Darter? Never heard of it.
U-darter is probably just the tip of iceburg.
As for which air launched CM south africa has ever produced, lookup TORGOS
http://www.missiledefenseadvocacy.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=1
FarooqThe Pakistanis don’t use any darters as far as I know.
U-Darter was produced in Pakistan by PIA Precision Engineering with PAF specific modifications. It was displayed in IDEAS , you’ll find enough pictures of its various parts and its seeker from IDEAS on PakDef. Mirages were equipped with U-Darter.
Now may i ask you what is your source ?
Farooqjust a slight addition. My bad about the altitude numbers, it’s more like atleast 100 miles and not kms.
FarooqAirborne emitters. Of what kind?!! There are emitters and then there are emitters- an airborne relay and comms station is not the same as a fighter.
I admit it’s kinda vague in this sense, but does not prove your point either that US depends on the “good will” of it’s enemies to relay their sensitive data with pronounced footprint for USA to pick up and be content :p
:rolleyes:
Are you offended?
Can you read?
which is the aim of a terrestrial relay or beaming back information throughout flight like a missile does to get telemetry data.
Ok sorry i am dumb. BUt how does a missile “beams back” information to “get” telemetry data. If you are beaming back to the ground station what does it “get”. :p
Technology is not EASY as Hollywood portrays it to be! Every system has limitations and so do ELINT sats. They can receive vast amounts of info, most of which is invariably garbage, the real gold comes when you know what you are looking for and receive it in the fidelity you require. That is not going to happen for a sat located thousands of kms away unable to focus its aperture to beam in on a beam that is not even directed towards it.
Nick, most of these Sats are 100-250 kms above in very low orbit. Atleast thats what i have read so far. You are more than welcome to verify.
FarooqFrom a layman’s perspective, there is one inherent difference between trying to read ground/ship based radar frequencies and FCR frequencies of fighters. The latter move at high speeds all over the blasted place, i doubt satellites can keep easy track of such movements. OTOH, both shipbased and landbased platforms are relatively stationery and could be tracked better. JMT.
Perhaps Nick, Jonesy and the mods could shed some light here.Regards,
USS.
USS NOVICE,
If the Sat is being used to “track” the object then perhaps i can agree with you. But when they are merely sniffing for RADINT in an area and relaying it to ground station, i don’t think that should be a problem. Ofcourse That could include alot of emitters and differentiating them would be a tll order, but no different then your airborne assets in a similar role. What i or you or anyone cannot say for sure is , what is the quality of signals and how useful they are for people involved in analysing them.
FarooqNick,
My first post mentions “airborne emmiters” in relation with White cloud and FERRET sats , not sure how you missed that.
which is the aim of a terrestrial relay or beaming back information throughout flight like a missile does to get telemetry data.
So telemetry data goes from terrestrial relay to a missile? Did i get that right?
I, in my very inexperienced mind always thought it would be the data relay from missile to the ground station :p
Anyways i have to admit i am not expert in this matter.However, do you really doubt that after 3-4 generations of ELINT Sats US is still not capable of sniffing airborne emmiters(which would certainly not be the case if they picked up telemetry data being relayed from missiles, IMHO)?
FarooqMore on intercepting automobile radios:
Based on intercepts of telemetry signals from Soviet missiles, CIA specialists followed the development and testing in the USSR of new missile types and provided the US leadership with reliable information for conducting discussions on the limitation of strategic nuclear forces. For example, as a result of decrypting intercepted telemetry signals from the SS-20 missile, American specialists established that it was being tested with 900 kg of ballast and that its actual capabilities were greater than those demonstrated during testing. The first hint of the development of the heavy Soviet ICBM which came to be called the SS- 19 was obtained by the Americans as the result of intercepting and decrypting a radio conversation between members of the Politburo and missile designers which was being conducted over a automobile radiotelephones. In 1973-1974 SIGINT satellites also revealed tests of the Soviet SA-5 antiaircraft missile against ballistic missile warheads at the Sary Shagan test range.
FarooqGuys,
On the topic, an interesting bit i came across. No details though.
http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/surveill/noss_andronov.htm
“The foreign press did not report information on the successful employment of the White Cloud Navy ELINT system during combat operations in the Persian Gulf, obviously because of the secrecy of the program and the limited nature of Iraqi naval operations. However, it cannot be excluded that the system operated in conjunction with the Air Force Ferret ELINT satellites to seek out the Iraqi air defense system, since the frequencies of ground-based and shipborne emitters are basically the same.
In this case the White Cloud Naval ELINT system could have supported a more frequent scrutiny of Iraq and a more precise location of the signals of ground-based and airborne emitters than could the Ferret satellites. “
MadRat,
If WHITECLOUD and FERRET sats can be used to receive and trasnmit or process radio signals off of sea bourne and ground based Radars (much more complex radint envrionments than a fighter aircraft IMHO) then why couldn’t they do the same with signals detected from a fighter jet?
I have to concur with Kaduna that the nation which is in the business of ELINT from outspace since 60s has seen through generation after generation of ELINT sats since then would be so hapless when it comes to picking and discerning radio emissions off a plane. If i am not wrong Airforce had a requirement for airplane tracking in “Joint Radar” (spaced based ofcourse) back in 70s. Also if you look at the Space based program it is an attempt to replace functions of AWACS,RIVET JOINT and JOINT STARS. They wouldn’t even divulge ELINT part of the requirements. I would think the technologies involved have become mature enough after 4 decades that US is feeling the need to streamline all it’s functions in SBR.
FarooqRight, chalk up another “world’s first” for the PAF.
Not really.
Missile——— Weight———— Range——— Payload
TAURUS——- appx.1400 kg——- 300+ km—— 500kg
SCALP——– appx. 1300 kg—— 250+ km —— 450kg
TORGOS—— 980 kg————- 300 km ——- 450kg
(TORGOS Carried by Cheetah)
http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/61/torgos-cruise-missile
It shares guidance system with Babur according to official release. It’s not anti-ship weapon but intended for strategic use (bunkers,runways,ports,command centers etc)
KADUNA,
MirageIII drop tanks: (I believe the bigger ones must be for centerline only)
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mirage-5.htm
Drop Tanks 625 L drop tank with 499kg of fuel for 96nm of range
1300 L drop tank with 1038kg of fuel for 199 nm of range
1700 L drop tank with 1358 kg of fuel for 260 nm of range
FarooqGround attack variant? More clearance for ordinance by increasing the height? the earlier one had grayish/light blue camo (air supriroity??) this one drak green perhaps for strike role?
FarooqI presume those photos are taken at the PAF Faisal museum in Karachi, Sindh, Pakistan?
Yep you are correct 🙂
The wbesite i guess has been taken off as i couldnt find it.
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