Steve

Would very much like to see whatever Lincoln shots you have, when time permits, of course.

Mark

You are right! The Aylesbury shot, slightly trimmed, appears in ‘Lincoln at War’ on page 169. The caption reads: ‘The breakers in action at Lindholme, Yorks, 18 July 1957’, and is credited to CS Waterfall. It’s strange how a very precise date gives authority to a totally incorrect caption!

You were kind enough to post the Kenley shots some months ago in response to my thread that ran in parallel on this and another forum, concerning the identity of that particular Lincoln.

If you were coming in as the Lincoln was going out, we must be of the same generation.

I too have a formation-of-three shot, taken from the Radar Bay at Coltishall on BoB Day 1961 during yet another working weekend, trying to keep the Lightning AI radar working.

Happy days, well, happy-ish.

Allan

Great shots – that’s my era!

Are you sure that the Lincoln was at Hullavington? I think that the Watton dump is a better bet. Watton is where it was based and that’s where a twisted mainplane finally grounded it.

The Lincoln is sadly neglected by historians, in spite of being the mainstay of Bomber Command for more years than the Lancaster and then the workhorse of many experimental establishments. So, any more Lincoln pictures, anybody, please?

Allan

Kansan

Nope, sorry, but – wrong! – that’s definitely not a Hillman Husky. Without a doubt, it’s a Standard Vanguard staff car, that stalwart of the British military in various marks throughout the Fifties and well into the Sixties. And in Pic 1, it even carries a CO’s pennant, and in the line-up a few messages down, there, third from the left is Wattisham’s Station Commander, so the Vanguard probably brought him to the photo shoot.

Incidentally, can anyone confirm that the guy 2nd from the left is Jeff Hawke?

Just to tie this in with another thread at :

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=45669&highlight=Lightning

The Lightning T.4 ‘X’ of 56 Sqdn (XM989?), together with 111 Sqdn’s T.4 (XM992?), was taken from the unit at fairly short notice. They re-appeared later as T.54s, stopping briefly at Wattisham on delivery to Saudi Arabia. As I remember, the red and white checks and the black and yellow lightning flash were still just discernable. So, it’s a 1-in-2 chance that the Lightning in Pic 1 and in the thread above are one and the same.

Well, somebody might be interested …….

Allan

Dam-Busting Lancasters

Can I add my piece to JDK’s musings, please?

The following is from Bruce Robertson’s book ‘Lancaster – The Story of a Famous Bomber’ published by Harleyford in 1964. It comes from an introduction written by one D A Russell. Do bear in mind that it was written in 1963 or 1964.

“One of the most interesting, and indeed controversial, of matters is the dam-busting Lancasters of No. 617 Squadron specially modified in the spring of 1943. Recently published drawings are claimed to be authentic and various authorities are quoted, but these are at variance with drawings shown here which are supported by actual photographic evidence (see pages 30, 31 and 129). These other drawings were said, in July this year, to have been made possible by a recent tracing of information. One of the authorities mentioned said that he understood that all drawings of the modification were destroyed on Ministry instructions for security reasons! THIS WAS NOT SO.

The information on the special modification to the dam-busting Lancasters was released at 10.30 a.m. on October 18th, 1962. Ministry of Aviation sanction having been obtained, it was the prerogative of Messrs. A. V. Roe Ltd., whose property the drawings were, to release the information. The general arrangement drawing Z2352, titled ‘Lancaster Type 464 Provisioning’, dated March 1st, 1943, was produced and spread out in an office at Messrs. A. V. Roe’s Chadderton works. The firm’s security officer, a retired wing commander, in the presence of two senior staff members of the firm, struck out the words “MOST SECRET” on the drawing, appended his signature to this declassification and HANDED IT TO THE ONLY OTHER PERSON PRESENT — THE AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK. It was passed on immediately to Harleyford’s draughtsmen.”

So Bruce Robertson asked the right people, and Type 464 and Upkeep were de-classified straightaway. Perhaps the film company didn’t ask the right people and consequently had to make do with guesswork which resulted in decidedly lumpy Lancasters!

Personally, I’d rather believe this simple answer. The thought of battalions of secret squirrels hoarding obsolete drawings doesn’t quite work for me.

Allan

For Dave T:

The meat freighter conversion of Lincoln airframes is a whole new can of worms! When the planned Lincoln U.5 programme, to convert to old bombers to pilotless drones, was cancelled, three of the 40-odd aircraft assembled at Avro’s Langar factory were purchased on 24.9.47 with the intention of producing aircraft to carry meat between Paraguay and Peru. They were moved to Tollerton for Field Aircraft Services to do the job. RE376 became the prototype, and is the one photographed with a deep fuselage and fully faired-in nose, much bigger than the Lancastrian nose. This carried the Paraguayan registration ZP-CBR-97. Although the conversion appears to have been completed, there is no evidence that it ever flew and it was sold for scrap in 9.59 at Tollerton, as were RF417/ZP-CBQ-96 and RF458/ZP-CBS-98.

Lincoln G-ALPF was long gone by this time, having been scrapped at Southend in late 1952/early 1953. Its pannier was a bit like that on the Halifax A.VII/C.VIII, and as it was only about the length of the bomb bay, it didn’t reach the nose, consequently the faired nose was much more like a Lancastrian nose than the meat freighter nose.

For Gnome – Lancaster or Lancastrian?

I think Eddie (with 682al’s amendment ref Aries) has it right. If the airframe was removed from the Lancaster production line at a very early stage and given a in-depth conversion, or built from scratch as such , then it was a Lancastrian. If it was a Lancaster taken from service or store and given a ‘cosmetic’ conversion ie fairings for nose, bomb bay, rear turret and other relatively minor changes, it remained a Lancaster eg PP690/G-AGUL, PD328/Aries, TW870 and others. ‘Fraid I can’t offer any thoughts on relative running costs.

Having said all that, the Canadian conversions don’t fit that rule above. A number of Lancasters X’s were diverted from the Victory Aircraft production line at an early stage, considerably modified but then identified as ‘Lancaster XPassengerPlane’ or ‘Lancaster XTransport’, not Lancastrian. The X didn’t signify anything experimental or special, it was just a mark number in the Roman numerals used at that time. CF-CMX in the photos supplied by Spiteful was one of those, being FM184 originally.

A few of these Lancasters/Lancastrians had quite colourful careers, some ending with ‘OnzeAir’ in Pakistan, carrying ‘certain stores’ into what was then a war zone. OnzeAir? Onze – the French for eleven; the Eleventh Commandment – “Thou shalt not be found out”!

Enough. Too much, some might say.

Allan

I’ve been researching the Lincoln now for about eight or nine years, and I managed to miss the programme! Never mind, the old b & w shots of Lincolns are great to see. The low level, approaching the guard tower is particularly interesting as a 49 Sqdn Lincoln – SX984 – was lost when it hit a police post while engaged in unauthorised low flying in Kenya. Any chance of higher definition scans of those shots, please?

Has anybody else got access to any other old shots of Lincolns, particularly of the 1946-50 period, that might assist me in my research, please?

Allan