varioWhy do these threads on a imaginery battle between A & B always assume you can judge a ship and it’s performance by published brochure figures? What about crew training, mechanical reliability, true capability (as opposed to brochure capability, a very different thing), tactical doctrine, will to fight, location of the fighting, logistics, condition of the vessels etc. etc? All of these tend to be a lot more important than the published brochure figures, half of which are little more than wishful thinking.
Because we are waiting for you to give us details on those areas. Why not start now?
varioyou are assuming from memory that kanwa said this and that, i dont recall pinkov ever saying anything like that. Anyway mine is more of an analysis 😉
If his articles did not generate lengthy debates on chinese forums 5-6 years ago, I may forget his claims. But I do remember, that’s why I am not assuming. In fact before and after 052B was unveiled 4 years ago, people were discussing how to fool him by deliberately spreading wrong info on 052C and 051C. And guess what, he was fooled.
As I said, in most cases I have no problem with him evenif he likes to get info/pictures around internet then SELL them under his name. But at the same time he’s accusing chinese forums of illegally posting his articles. That’s not fair.
varioAt least I never assumed anything. I only read what Kanwa said, and now most of what Kanwa said about the super Sov did not come true except the CIWS.
As of 051C,052C and 052B, seems that you are assuming too much.
varioYou’re answering a nonexistent article. Vario never read such a thing. He either remembered incorrectly or simply made it up.
Not even Kanwa is stupid enough to say that the PLAN will “only” buy from Russian yards when there is a virtual flood of 052Bs, 052Cs, 054s, 051Cs, Yuans and the 2208 FACs coming out of Chinese shipyards in recent years staring Kanwa and everyone else in the face. Kanwa never said anything of the sort.
Sorry, my memory is not too bad. I still remember in 1992/93 when people on a Taiwan’s BBS board (internet forum was still primitive at that time) said China would no longer be able to produce large combat warships because US would not sell LM25000 to them any more, while actually PLAN was contemplating on DDG167.
And, around year 2000, Pinkov was claiming Sov II would be a fantastic warship and China would rely on Russia on most of Naval systems. At that time he had absolutely NO CLUE on PLAN’s devlopment plan. And his Russian contacts lied to him.
In 2002 when 052B was lauched, he had been silent for the whole year. And after that when he finally started to speak something, he mixed up 051C and 052C although he got some skecthy infor form Russia. He did not even know there’s a 051C project, he thought 052C was the one that used Russian systems.
He only got a clear understanding of all things in 2004. Yet he never explained who told him about all those fancy stuff on Sov II.
Man, several years ago, there were quite a number of chinese internet posters who were firm believers of his super Sov II ,Slava and that FAC ( I don’t remember the name)
In most cases, I don’t have any problem with Kanwa or Pinkov. I just think he should adjust his way in making conclusions. He’s no doubt the best source on China’s military equipments VIA RUSSIAN contacts. But he should know that’s still an indirect way to look at parts of China’s military.
varioWhat’s the disappointment? China should be buying less and less Russian products in general. I can see that China might buy the Ukrina or two more Sov, but that would only be because JN is moving, so the 052 series is put on hold for now. In the best of the world, I’d like PLAN to just stick with ships built in the Chinese shipyards, because the Chinese shipyards just build much better ships than the Russian ones. The fire incident with 139 is just another reason why China needs to stay away from Russian ships.
Well, Don’t ask me. Ask Kanwa. It’s Kanwa who said that PLAN’s future surface ships would only come from Russia and the Sov II was a magical ship with all the new toys, like VLS etc…
varioWhat a disappointment! I still remember several years ago how Kanwa depicted the new super dupa Sov and China would buy many Russian naval systems, Slava, FAC etc…
varioThe two HaiLung have been upgraded lately to highest standard.
I have pix in a magazine here. The look rather new. The hull paint is shinning and all.Yes, very lately they had at least one exec with the USN.
Yes, I forgot the tremendous 641. A sub of the future, uh? LOL! 😀
That’s a breaking news! Can any one confirm this: ROCN Sub did exec with USN. All I know is the ROCN did send observors to US and Japan exercises. But actually sending main combat unit to have joint exec, I never heard of that.
Also, according to you, the 2 HaiLung have been upgraded lately to HIGHEST standard. Do you have any details, beside the paint works?
What is 641? Anyway, Foxtrot beats all.
varioOh, when did ROCN excercise with US and Japan?
Last time I heard about their subs was they could not manage to fire their torpedoes very well. That certainly can’t beat Foxtrot, which is superior to everything.
varioStop me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the KMT screaming for the weapons the US was going to sell Taiwan when they were still in charge? As far as I know the opposition is just political grandstaging – plus having a bit of a temper tantrum because they thought they had the presidential elections in the bag.
No, you are not wrong. It’s all about politics. Wasn’t the current ruling party screaming against weapon projects(no matter they were domestic or foreign purchases) when KMT was in power?
varioLook, these “movie” clips prove nothing. I’ve seen them before. What I mean is the stuff that really inside, behind those shiny screens and panels. Can you see them? I can’t.
varioLook Dude , we are just limiting our discussion to the Topic , Try not to project that we are Typical indians , Trying to undermine Chinese achievement , I know China has many achievement to its credit , But here the topic is different , So lets stick to it.
Yes, can we please only talk about Foxtrot vs Song/Kilo/Agosta90B please.
Otherwise, the topic will be expanded to Mars.
varioI dont expect Chinese lecture on the noiseness of subs , thats the last thing you would like to talk about when you want to discuss Chinese sub development.
Well said. With more than 50 years of experiences and knowledges accumulated inside Foxtrot, IN knows far more than chinese on what noise really means.
Appereance can be deceptive , Subs has lot to it than just appearance .
Please stop even remotely comparing the Agosta 90B to the Songs , There is a generational difference bewteen the two , Just because Chinese built their Song Class in mid nineties dosent make it equal to the Agosta90B,T-209 ,Kilo and other subs.Its Just like saying since we managed to develop the J-10 in early 2000 , so it should be comparable to the F-22.
I agree. Although I don’t know what’s inside Song either, I do know Song is inferior to Foxtrot and that’s good enough.
Firing of AshM is no great achievement at this time , Most of the western and russian subs have been having this capability since decades , Its just a natural progression , A Foxtrot of nineties would be capable of doing the same .
An unsucessful project ( not a total failure ) can be continue to progress , If it gives you a learning curve to develop a better sub like Yuan , Please dont throw numbers to defend its sucess , Kilo’s were purchased when Chinese realised their sub technology was generational behind the West , Kilo is a good move to leap frog to something much much better , and upgrade Chinese Sub technology and knowledge , IMO it was a right move by China, As it is greatly helping the Yuan Project.
Exactly!
Just watch out for IN Foxtrot in 21st century. I am not trying to stomp on china. Frankly speaking, IN’s kilo purchase was not such a success either although IN have learned a lot from it. That’s why IN is keeping the Foxtrot. Even the new sub deal signed with French is just a blank paper at moment, whether it can really beat Foxtrot or not is still an open question.
varioThe IN Foxtrot have undergone total upgrades and many Indian Sonar , Command system are installed in it ,Panchendria etc .
Its not about having a 7 Blade skewed propellor , Its about getting it right , and there is no doubt that Song didnt meet much success and so China decided to go for more Kilo about 8 636(besides the 4 ordered in 90’s) and after gaining technology from it built the Yuan class which is going through its trials.
They learnt some lesson from the not so sucessful Song , They looked at Kilo closely , and possibly some generous help from Pakistan through the Agosta90B route , They built their new Yaun class sub , And perhaps the logical thing to do.
Yuan = Improved Song + Kilo + Possible some German,Israel,Pakistan.
Indian Navy Operates the Modified Foxtrot , Kilos & T209-1500 , All three have a role to Play in the IN , Foxtrot might be the oldest of the three , But better than any Song or Dance.
Foxtrot is a cold war veteran , and has much better repution and sucess world wide , India Navy operates the 2 modified Foxtrot ( Indian Sonars ,C&C …), It had 8 Foxtrot , The two still in IN service is a modified Foxtrot it will continue to serve the Navy for some time. FOXTROT was a modern at its time when it was purchased , and still continue to serve the IN , speakes volumes of its sucess and capability , Kilo & T-209 is state of the art sub of 1990 , Scorpene is for the 21st Century.
J-10 is a *secret* project so no comments on that , Can any one deny Mig-21 sucess , even China uses a copied Mig-21 variant.
Also, guys, please remember, IN stopped buying Kilos long time ago and still hang on to the Foxtrot. Whereas china actually relied on Kilo’s technology to improve Song and Yuan. That’s a clear evidence that Foxtrot is superior than Song.
The story of Foxtrot in IN service marks one of the most spectacular success of former Soviet weapon systems.
Excuse me , The debate here is Foxtrot vs Song vs T-206 , And In the context of this I have stated that Song is a unsucessful but a learning curve for China , China has few sucess to its credit ,It has reversed engineered many aircraft and weapons system and built upon it to adopt the system to its requirement , Not many country has such massive reverse engineering capability , Infact on this earth only China Does , And IMO its an achievement.
Also IMO Yuan looks promising , But I would reserve my comments till it started some series production and some years of service.
Actually, I think Austin is very kind here. Clearly, Yuan is a worse failure. At least there were 10-12 Songs that had been dumped on PLAN. Yuan didn’t even got such a chance.
Are you suggesting if ever the Song was offered to the PN , they would have ever gone for it , Think about it.
No, he knew that even the first failed Song sub was only launched in 1995. There’s no way it could be offered to PN.
He’s just trying to distract the discussion to hide the fact that the much superior Foxtrot has been available since WWII.
varioJudging from these efforts alone, e.g. visiting everybody’s existing carrier, of course it does not provide any substantial evidence on their real purpose. But if you put these efforts into the big picture that lasted more than 20 years, and all the other efforts they have tried, IMO, they are researching on floating a carrier rather than sinking one. For example, if you want to sink a carrier, why bother wasting so much energy on steam catapult which they’ve been checking around for over 2 decades.
varioInteresting to know that, you mean somebody being cheated?
No, not cheat. In our modern era, it’s called advertisement.
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