This is a tricky subject with heated sides, and I know I should not dare to set foot into this quagmire, but…

When IRA terrorists have been captured, they have not, to my knowledge, been systematically tortured by order of the the heirachy and lawmakers. No. As far as I have been lead to beleive, they have been accorded basic prisoners’ rights and a chance of justice – no matter how some may feel about this. They have been formally charged, and they have been given a fair trial by jury. Their cases and charges against them have been made public. And some of those trials have proved the captives were found to be completely innocent, and were simply people caught at the wrong place at the wrong time and labelled as terrorists due to mistakes and poor intelligence. Makes you think really.

Guantanamo Bay is reported to be rife with torture. Torture in any circumstance of capture is totally unacceptable. We all feel so bad to hear of RAF and US pilots tortured in Iraq when they were shot down, or our side’s men captured in other wars such as Vietnam, and WWII. Why is it different when US soldiers torture prisoners from the other side? That is, even if the captives there are on the other side and not simply presumed to be because they were there at the wrong time, or because some idiot in “intelligence” said so. With the intelligence gathering of this present war, it is very hard to know what to believe. And either way, whether they are innocent or gulity, I still find it outragious and sickening, especially when they have not even been given a trial to prove their case.

So the Guantanamo prisoners may not have rights under US law, but what about international law? I don’t understand this. Does the USA not recognise international laws?

Holding someone captive without trial, who is not officially a prisoner of war, is unacceptable too to me. America is not alone there of course, even NZ held a terror suspect for more than two years without trial. This is wrong in my mind. Instant trial under international law or instant deportation to country of origin/citizenship for trial there are the only courses of action I feel.

Detention without trial, charges or due reason smacks of something very dark, barbaric and evil as far as I am concerned, I’m afraid.

John Boyle, I respect your comments and yourself highly by the way, and you can say what you like about Kiwis, but we do have opinions too mate. We are free to express them too even if they are contrary to other people. We enjoy freedom here. Does not your own country also proclaim freedom of speech to all? – or is that only when they say something that policy agrees with?

I also thought the USA holds onto the policy of ‘innocent until proven guilty’, like we here in NZ do? Or has that gone by the wayside?

By the way, I do not shear sheep, thank you very much – I keep mine to myself mate!!

Sauron, I never said anything of the sort of what you implied. My post was not about politics or nationalities. Yes, obviously military equipment needs maintenance. I was interested in the report because you got to SEE a side of war, any war, not normally seen by the public. That’s all.

I forgot to mention, personally I find Austers as boring and dull as Cessnas and Piper Cubs. I’ve never had much time for them. They do not excite me at all I’m afriad.

But when they have skis or especially floats on they somehow (like Cessnas and Cubs with floats) appeal to me a lot more. They seem to take on a whole new character. I really like the Antarctic Auster in it’s bright yellow scheme and skis at Wigram. But if I saw a wheely Auster at an airshow I’d not even stop for a look I don’t think. Not that you see them at airshows much here anyway.

Hear hear John. Well put.

During the Anzac Service I thought about my great-great uncle, Frank Fitness, who was Mum’s grandfather’s brother. We know so little of him because he was the ‘black-sheep of the family. Not because he did anything wrong, but because he is thought to have been illegitimate. I’m sure he was well loved and cared for in the family but he was not spoken of after his death and all living memory of the man has vanished. All we had was a photo of him in uniform, and Mum sourced his service records, which told quite a tale. He went to Gallipoli, and was wounded there. He returned and then fought for two more years in France, wounded twice more, before being killed on the 23rd of June 1917. My forebears may have chosen to forget hijm, but I consider him quite a hero and I for one will not forget. He was the only immediate member of my family to have served in the Great War as far as I know.

I think about my great-uncles who served at war in the 2NZEF and the RNZAF. Most of them have passed away since, some I never met.

I also think of my Mum’s cousin, Pat Bourke, who served in Vietnam. I used to enjoy a beer with him on Anzac Days in the 1990’s. He died a few years ago from cancer, which we all believe was due to his exposure to Agent Orange, even if the powers that be won’t accept it.

I think of mates I served with in the RNZAF too who are no longer around. Three were killed in car accidents. They didn’t fall in battle but to me they are fallen comrades.

And I thought very much about the Cambridge airmen who I have spent the past year and a half researching. The around 40 killed in action, and the many more who returned – some of whom were in the ever diminishing ranks on parade.

By the way – To amend what I wrote above about Freyberg, it seems he swam ashore on the 24th to set up flares at a different beach from where they landed, in order to divert Turk troops away from the landing beaches. This is why he got the DSO.

Just a note about those “official” figures James, local Cambridge researcher Richard Stowers has just released a superb book called ‘Bloody Gallipoli’. He has been through old records and found the official figures are totally wrong. He has proven that 2779 New Zealanders died at Gallipoli itself (58 more than previously thought). He also proved that there were 13,977 New Zealand troops altogether in the campaign (5421 more than earlier official estimates). In fact he also commented that this may be a reserved figure and there may have been up to 20,000 NZ’ers in the campaign, but he’d have to check every single individual service record to find out – a HUGE task – and see who was and wasn’t there, and who went, was evacuated wounded and returned, etc. This position Richard has put forward is backed up by other notable Gallipoli researchers such as Dr Chris Pugsley. No doubt other country’s official figures may be up the pole too.

As for NZ and Australian losses compared to other countries – The big difference for the ANZACs at Gallipoli, and perhaps moreso for the Kiwis, was not the numbers lost compared with others, but this was our first ever such loss as a nation. Yes, NZ’ers were fighting in the South African war too, but as British troops, and in tiny numbers, with few casualties. In WWI it was a New Zealand army, the First New Zealand Expeditionary Force, made up of volunteer citizens, not army professionals.They were mostly people off the street, known in their town or district. The entire nation was rocked by the losses, and for the first time felt the impact of a war on its nationhood. The UK, France and India were used to war. I suppose Canada was too. NZ wasn’t.

Gallipoli was a devastating disaster to New Zealand, our first large scale army in its first large scale battle, decimated under overwhelming odds and terribly ill-conceived cirmcumstances that seemed plainly avoidable to many doing the fighting. In fact this country had never suffered such losses and injuries to its citizens in any event, natural or otherwise.

I’m unsure if the Aussies see Anzac Day quite the same as we do, but for NZ it was a coming of age, when the country suddenly “grew up with a thuimp” on the world stage. We went from being a simple colony to a nation, overnight on the 25th of April 1915. That is the emphasis for this country. A coming of age, and ratehr a rude one at that.

As James mentions our Anzacs were devastated again in April 1941 in a similar style of botch up, with the same poor decisions by the same style of commanders – including Churchill both times – at Greece and Crete. It was at this point that Bernard Freyberg, our greatest ever general, told Churchill our troops would never again be lead by the British, and that he would have full command. And by jove, command he did.

Incidentally I heard yesterday that as a Private, Freyberg, who had been a simple dentist in Morrinsville, Waikato, NZ before the Great War, was the first Allie ashore at Gallipoli, when the ships anchored off in the straights taking the troops to the landing grounds needed a scout. He volunteered, and swam with a rope to the shore on the night of the 24th of April 1915, checked it all out and swam back. He was given an instant DSO. He later receieved the VC, became our top General in WWII and after the Second World War was NZ’s Governor General.

James, I have never heard of Phuoc Tuy – what country was that in? Another example of ANZAC co-operation was the recent peacekeeping in East Timor where the Kiwis were under Australian joint command. It may have been peace-keeping but both our countries lost troops in the warzone there.

The Anzac spirit was alive and well in the Pacific in WWII where our Corsairs worked with RAAF Boomerangs on operations all the time, in total co-operation. Of course in Vietnam the Kiwis and Aussies often worked together too, including the Forward Air Controllers, and our ground troops did fight together too. Sadly in one terrible incident when US intelligence did it’s usual thing, ie showed a lack of, 161 Battery, RNZA opened fire on an Australian battalion and caused several deaths and injuries. Definately not the Anzacs final hour. Again, lions lead by donkeys.

Thanks Andy,

I have returned after a long day of commemorating. Up at 5am and off to the Cenotaph for 6am after my mate picked me up and two others. These three are my best mates and all are British born, but have lived here for several years, and are in their mid-20’s. This was the first time one of them had ever been to Dawn Parade, for another it was his second time but he couldn’t remember the first time because he’d tried to stay awake by drinking all night before it! Not the best idea.

All three seemed to have a very moving experience this morning, and they said they learned a lot. There are two ANZAC Day parades in our town, Dawn Parade at 6am, Civic Service at 9am where the Scouts, Cubs, Guides etc take part and they have different speakers, etc. We went to both, and in between went to the designated pub next to the Cenotaph where cups of coffee and tea topped with generous portions of rum were dished out by the wonderful veterans of the Returned Services Association, along with sausage rolls. It was then off to the Civic Service where one of the speakers was my friend Eris Parker, who is curator of the Cambridge Museum. She has been a huge help in my own research into Cambridge Airmen, and she wrote a book about Cambridge’s efforts in WWI.

Today she gave a very moving account of the Cambridge boys on Gallipoli. She mentioned all those who died, and when (18 in all in the campaign, 2 on the first day!). She read quotes from diaries and letters and stories of some who returned home, wounded and otherwise. It was just amazing to hear their story so close to home, and hear names of people who’s families are still here, etc.

I estimate that the Dawn Service attracted at least 1000 people, which is by far the biggest I have seen in Cambridge and I’ve been attended almost every year since I was a kid in 1984. The Civic Service had at least 600-700 people too. When the inside part of the Civic Parade was over, and we all came to file out of the hall to the Cenotaph, the veterans went first. There was a rousing applause of real gratitude as they all rose to leave. I’d never seen this before, and it was incredibly powerful.

There were no aircraft round here and I saw none on the news where they gave the round-up of main centres. I can say that most of the places on the news had steady rain it seems, but we had not a cloud all day. We had a hua of a frost though, which was still on the ground at 9am when we went into the hall for the first part of the Civic Parade! It was absolutely freezing.

In remembering the efforts of the Kiwis and Aussies at ANZAC Cove, lets not forget either the British, French and Indian troops who also fought on the Allied side, and the 87,000 Turks who died defending their soil.

It’ll be great to see your photos Andy when you get a chance. The scenes of the commemortions today still show the beaches looking like roadworks sites, feshly turned over and smoothed soil. Dreadful. Of the 18 Cambridge people who died on the Peninsular, only 1 has a marked gave. All the rest are merely spirits remembered on the memorials now.

Thinking of you too John P. by the way.

Lest We Forget.