JwcookIt wasn’t too late… the MMRCA deal fell through, the L1 bid was null and void and a govt purchase was then arranged..
by this time the offer had been made and they still didn’t consider the cheaper Typhoon, no discussion was even attempted, the question is why.
JwcookTooCool_12 wrote:-
If the Typhoon was anywhere near that much cheaper than the Rafale, it would have been known for ages… looks more like another attack on political grounds against Modi rather than simple reporting.. one has to wonder:
– who wrote that article?
– who paid ?
– what agenda there is behind it?
The prices were discussed Ad nauseam, those with a fair idea were unfortunately shouted down.
The article was written based on the letters attached to the bottom of the piece, (read the letter)
e.g.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]257392[/ATTACH]
Its the letter from Eurofighter as an offer, doesn’t really matter who payed wrote it, most people here would be able to read the letter and gather the relevant facts.
Those facts are the Typhoon was 39 million euros cheaper that Rafale, but the Indian Govt would not consider it, the real meat in the story is why the Indian govt blocked it.
Cheers
JwcookAccording to this, The Typhoon would be cheaper as a lot of people speculated at the time.
https://theprint.in/2017/12/01/rafale-deal-govt-passed-option-buy-e59-mln-unit-cheaper-eurofighter/
JwcookPlease, this “coup” was far more likely to be orchestrated by Erdogan himself than the U.S., or a Cleric living in the Poconos.
There were already rumblings about selling Turkey weapons before these recent events. Those voices against selling modern weapons to Turkey will be louder now.
What is and isn’t true is not relevant… that’s why I stated clearly “Whether the US did indeed have a hand in this coup attempt is immaterial, its what the Turkish government wants to promote that will become “truth” for the Turkish people.”
Now if that shift to a more sharia orientated society is the goal, then a wedge between Turkey and the West will be needed either by revealing US involvement or by manufactured facts.
The political clean out has already started, I doubt that its to be a more inclusive secular government, the West is now caught up in its own rhetoric, i.e.support a democratic government that’s not the Wests friend.
It’ll be interesting to watch the western leaders giving grudging support to Erdogan, but that’s what diplomacy is for..
JwcookIt might go deeper than fighter sales…
Turkish government is taking the opportunity to clear out elements of the ruling classes using the Coup as an excuse, cursory examination point to the West and the US being blamed.
The presence of Gulan in the US and Turkey seeming re positioning to a more fundamental religious society does not bode well for the west.
Whether the US did indeed have a hand in this coup attempt is immaterial, its what the Turkish government wants to promote that will become “truth” for the Turkish people.
I hope that the loss of a potential F-35 order would be the least of the Wests worries.
Cheers
JwcookBut Nat has also said “to be fair, when carrying heavy stores the limits are lower….”
cheers
JwcookI believe the Typhoon has a valve in the comms equipment for EMP reasons.
JwcookEvery single manufacturer is going to use a scenario that plays to the strength of their aircraft by comparison. Simply put John, which aircraft has a longer combat radius on internal fuel? Which aircraft could fly a cap mission to 750 nmi and be 9g capable throughout?
The Su-35S..
Btw, in what scenario do you see any aircraft engaging in a 10 minute air to air encounter? Cesar Rodriguez has three kills in three separate engagements and in two different conflicts- total time of engagements- around 90 seconds.
If your facing and adversary with good persistance he is not going to be idling around so you can get your fat weezy kid (FWK) into a suitable nice safe firing solution, it will develop into a missile fight at edge of their envelopes, with aircraft going towards the merge and breaking away to deny any the return shot.
Apparently the FWK doctrine has the FWK turn up at the fight, fires a couple of AMRAAMS and then sedately turns away for a leisurely cruise back in time for tea and medals.
If your using Cesar Rodriguez as an example the two Migs were within 13miles when detected and going straight for the F-15’s there then occurred what could be described as a furball…and a remerge after a bug out and flight into terrain – i.e. its a very bad example for the FWK.
JwcookNo, the source is pretty clear that it is an apples to apples comparison.
The test was very very selective, it uses the most favourable scenario tailored to the F-35, if you read where the JSF came in second it doesn’t mention what to… Just take a guess, or where the opposition have 2 extra air to air WVR missiles.. Apples to Apples Pfffft.
It also mentions the results for WVR are barely measurable, funny how that occurs if the JSF isn’t carrying WVR missiles.
Its been worked out with as the combat radius with only 1 min of combat where the JSF was able to successfully disengage(LOL) , at the cruise height which the JSF was designed to fly (Typhoon best cruise altitude is much higher and the more combat time it sees the worse for the F-35 results)
Give that a clean F-35 can already match a Eurofighter’s range with three tanks I think you can see why external tanks have not been an early priority.
They will probably come in Block 4 or as an Israeli-integrated option.
The issue was that separation was very bad, predicted to keep hitting the aircraft, the redesign fix was also bad, I wonder if the Israelis will fair any better.
The F-35 is an aircraft where external fuel carriage isn’t a priority? hmmm thats ok if someone has dozens of spare tankers available to ferry them to the areas of conflict, strange that ferry ability is now not important!
It also leaves your refueling aircraft very vulnerable to counter air attack, given your F-35 are obviously optimized for 1 min of combat the enemy will have to be pretty permissive to let you get away with trailing tankers behind you in case it goes on for 10 mins. Or are you only planning to fight enemy’s exactly 760Nm away? obviously the Israelis think the situation is far from ideal, that’s why they are looking into EFT’s and CFT’s or are they being silly developing unnecessary capability?
As for the F-35 matching the Typhoon on range once again the figures are not apples to apples, there is no doubt the JSF will win on range with just internal fuel, but it is a combat aircraft and its expected to engage in real combat and not a highly stylized tailored scenario.
For example:- The Typhoon can go ~800nm with a 1 min combat at the end with 3 tanks, the 750nm figure quoted by Eurofighter is for a different profile and an additional 10 mins of combatloiter, now that’s not the profile the JSF is using. ;)Why am I not surprised.
So using Lockheed math for equal combat time at 750nm you’d need 10 F-35 for the same single Typhoon mission.. Wow these tailored aircraft scenarios are dead easy….:D
If you reverse the situation and have the F-35 do 10mins of combat then you start getting into the F-35 trailing the Typhoon on range, but 10 mins of combat in a F-35 isn’t going to end well for the fat slow kid, especially against a faster, higher flying foe that has more missiles.
In short if your best figures are based on a very unlikely scenario and still the results are marginal one must come to the conclusion all is not as rosey as LM and its cheerleaders keep asserting.
By the way whats that F-35 doing in that http://www.fisher.org.il/2016/Adir%20Powepoint/GaryNorth.pdf PDF stuck right in the middle of Canada?:dev2: its dated April 2016. I’m assuming its the 1st April.
Cheers
JwcookHere’s something I was wondering, and perhaps the F-35 experts can help, when did the F-35 qualify its external fuel tanks?
JwcookSo that makes it pretty darn official.
Interesting that the F-35 has essentially the same range on internal fuel as a Eurofighter with three tanks.
You might find that range quoted includes weapon range.
Jwcookhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stealth-fighter-payment-1.3619469
Liberals miss membership payment to stay in F-35 consortium
The Trudeau government has missed the deadline for a multimillion-dollar payment that keeps Canada in the club of nations involved in the F-35 stealth fighter program, CBC News has learned.
The $32-million membership fee was due on May 31, but a spokeswoman for Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan confirmed late Monday that the U.S. project office overseeing development of the highly complex jet has not received the instalment.
But Jordan Owens cautioned not to read too much into the oversight and that Canada is still on the hook for the cash.
ON the Hook… that will always lead to a fair and impartial selection process.
JwcookThe exact same questions that were asked right here…
http://nytkampfly.dk/archives/8726
The real kickers are the ones where Eurofighter explicitly states that the evaluation committee didn’t use the figures they gave them. 😉 and that the data provided by Eurofighter over the last 15 months wasn’t used i.e using only the data from 2014 when it was less favourable.
I especially like
Q17 Eurofighter Eurofighter Sims not used to reduce flying hours as per F-35.
Q20 Eurofighter quoted contractually binding prices, did the F-35 do the same?
Q22 Eurofighter quoted a 8300FH lifetime for air frame, not the 6000 quoted in report.
Q25 Eurofighter quoted a dramatically lower figure for FTE than used in evaluation.
Q29 Eurofighter gave actual figures for cost per FH but Evaluation used figures from German report which included many additional costs e.g. allowances for pension costs, depreciation and other costs the other competitors were not subject to.
Q35-39 Where the non guaranteed F-35 bid for work is rated higher than guaranteed work for Denmark.
Q42 Mutually exclusive statements on special relationship for F-35, and equal treatment of candidates.
If you looked at the 3 and wanted to skew the results you would have to raise the SH price as its much cheaper, degrade the Typhoons performance…
I mean how hard the committee must have worked to ignore the contractually binding prices and choose a price that could in no way be compared to the other competitors, now I have no doubt the Typhoon costs quite a bit to buy and run, but massaging the figures across such a broad range for both the Eurofighter and Super Hornet is really quite a feat.
JwcookEurofighter is asking questions to the Danish eval committee.
http://nytkampfly.dk/archives/8726
They are asking some very interesting questions — not that any decisions will be changed of course…
jwcook where are you!? 🙂
They are very very good questions… I think The Danish might have a bit of explaining to do.
The questions are straight to the point, But I wonder if the answers will be ‘sensitive’ and require a non disclosure agreement when given to Eurofighter?
I’d be very interested in the results, not that it will change the ‘totally impartial evaluation’, It was a forgone conclusion politically, I’m surprised the evaluation didn’t mention the name of the fighter had to start with an F end with a 5 and have a 3 in it somewhere 😉
JwcookAgain, I find it telling that after 111 pages the main things that stick out to you are offsets and training.
They are not my main thing, others have comprehensibly covered the other issues with the “evaluation”, If you cannot or refuse to see the evidence then there is little I can say to change your perspective.
Though your denial of the evidence reminds me of something Hmmm Oh yeah this –
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