JwcookThanks for the links TEEJ.
Those ships looked awfully like they were hit by 1000lb LGBs’ from Typhoons, explosions look to big to be Paveway IVs’. Could be wrong though. If they were hit by Typhoon(s) they can now say they sunk a ship or two. 😀
The targetting pods are the same ‘but different’ for the Ships and buildings, theres extra info blanked out on the L shaped building shots.
So which targetting pod is which?
Did a Typhoon get its first naval target? be interesting to see what designated and what dropped the bombs.
Cheers
JwcookMay 20 (Reuters) – Japan may drop the F-35 stealth fighter from a shortlist for the country’s next generation fighter due to a sharp delay in the plane’s development plan, Kyodo agency reported on Friday citing diplomatic and defense sources.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/20/japan-fighter-idUSL4E7GK11120110520
So it could come down to just the Typhoon and F/A-18? Any thoughts?
_
If its true then Japans decision rests solely on its political aspect. The Typhoon and Rafale has ben judged ahead of the F-18 in the Indian Competition evaluation (Which has been IMHO fair), so The Typhoon with all else being equal should win, But Japan would have to do something that is almost unthinkable…. Buy a non US aircraft!! This would send shockwaves through the aircraft procurement world.
Warton, United Kingdom | BAE Systems has been awarded long term contracts worth a total of £39 million by the UK’s Ministry of Defence (MOD) to provide support services to ensure that Typhoon continues to maintain its ability to operate in all types of environments.
The development work covered by the contracts will enhance the UK Royal Air Force (RAF) capability to process intelligence information about operational threats and then upload this to Typhoon’s electronic warfare systems prior to the mission.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/24698/?SID=4542ed3e583deffbf5ec56e8dfb60610
See? “Little things” such as this quietly build up the Tiffy’s capabilities, sneaky. 😉
I’m wondering if the test conformal tanks are being manufactured as we speak?….
Cheers
JwcookI’m completely sold on the theory that your radar only needs to be big enough to bear your longest range weapon.
Nic
But that would restrict cooperative targeting, having a radar silent fighter ahead of an emitting aircraft is a particularly good tactic, and having a very long range radar can be exploited tactically in so many more ways to get a better firing solution.
Cheers
JwcookI fear that the Dutch eval’ was before the EF’s 75% overcost explosion…
?? This cost explosion, are you refering to something R&D+Program price or Flyaway price?
The unit price is comparable to the Rafale, the through life cost are comparable, If the data I have presented is accurate then Dassault are going to have to pull a fecking big rabbit out of their hat to compete.;)
Bon Chance
Jwcook1995 evaluations?
:D:D
Ilusions blurs realities of wet dreams
Err 2002 evaluations, the prices for the Rafale and Typhoon will have changed due to inflation but both by the same margins.
Its the ratio were interested in, both aircraft are roughly similar in price (Rafale is ~20% more per unit).
The lifecycle costs are the interesting bit, once again the Typhoon edges out the Rafale at 11% cheaper.
I’m not saying this is proof positive that Typhoon is the cheaper to buy and maintain than the Rafale, just that all the evidence so far points that way.
It remains to be seen how much cost cutting each side is desperate enough to chop., but as I have shown Typhoon has a small head start however unpalatable that may be to some.
Cheers
JwcookI seriously doubt the costs for the other planes as well. Typhoon less expensive than the Super Hornet? I don’t think so!
Nic
These were the figures from the manufacturers, one thing to note is the next page contains something fro the Rafale fans…
There was a letter dated the 5 feb that offered a flyaway price of less than 49m Euros, but there Google translate fails me, there is mention of a a kings airforce (possibly royal) and an ampount of 10mEuros extra for EW kit. now whether that refers to the Rafale or the Typhoon I will leave to Ducth speakers.
Another thing the exchange rates will have changed, the US dollars collapse will have lowered their prices considerably, on the order of ~40%
cheers
JwcookCool info JWcook, was there any info on Gripen NG ?
No the Gripen was was eliminated – but the unit price was given as 42.3 Million Euros.
[ATTACH]195196[/ATTACH]
Investment, operating and life cycle costs calculated over 120 aircraft over 30 years (disposal costs to zero). The investment include aircraft, simulators, spare engines, initial stock of spare parts, infrastructure adjustments, modifications during
production phase, special tools, measuring and test equipment, documentation and initial training, transportation, taxes and
duties.
I freely admit the cost of the JSF is laughable… ~60mUSD LMAO
Cheers
JwcookI think the procurement and operating cost are best covered by the Dutch competition where the Rafale apparently was put ahead of the typhoon, the RFI stated that their evaluation was as follows
In Millions of Euro’s
For 120 aircraft
………………………Rafale……………..Eurofighter
Unit Price…………..59.4…………………51.64
Investment………..10.733………………8.82
Operating costs……8.783……………….7.82
Lifetime……………19.516……………..16.62
Cheers
Jwcookthe (Typhoon) FCS is programmed to keep the control surface aligned, to reduce the RCS
There is a bit more to it on the Typhoon.
The FCS and DASS are tied together so that when a threat emitter is detected the Typhoon can fly a flight profile that keeps the ‘best’ RCS reduced facet pointing at the emitter (or hides the worst facet if you prefer).
Which has the smaller RCS?, while this is very complicated (Anglefrequencythresholds) the most likely result IMHO is the Rafale has a better bow tie RCS reduction, where as the Typhoon is better front on.
I think that should keep both sides happy;-)
Cheers
JwcookBlimey! its like the battle of Agincourt on this thread!!
Only this time the French have a better chance of winning.:)
Everyone take a deep breath – Pilots will always mention their best experience with their aircraft and gloss over its weaknesses, as those weaknesses are just what the opposition wish to exploit.
I take information from pilots as a great source of information regarding capability, taken with a few grains of salt they are one of the best sources.
Both of these aircraft are very very worthy, either one can win the Indian competition, and the crux of the matter is cost, (btw – I can’t find anything official on Rafale costs!!)
So thanks all those who bother to go to the airshows or briefings and ask the right questions in the right places.
I think the far better point to argue is why the airforces who havn’t selected Typhoon or Rafale chose inferior aircraft?:diablo: (Are you listening Australia? lol)
Cheers
Jwcookcan’t fight Myth and spinners with reality and facts!
Is that a comment or a family motto?
JwcookDoes anyone have a MMH/FH comparison for the Typhoon and Rafale?
The target for Typhoon was 10MMH/FH I think they were achieving between 12-15MMH/FH last time I checked.
source http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADP010425&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
I had heard that a 20MMH difference would equal a 12 million euros over the life of each aircraft.
Thats over 1.5 billion Euros for a program the size of the Indian deal.
Or how about the number of inspections required over the 6000 hrs of flight hours are required (Typhoon is ~14).
Or number of faults per 1000 flight hours (typhoon was targeted with >400 but has achieved >280)
are there any comparable Rafale figures?.
Cheers
All these add up and are crucial top the next phase of the indian deal.
I found a reference to 12MMH/FH for the Rafale and 7MMH/FH for the Typhoon, both of which are unofficial.
Cheers
JwcookDoes anyone have a MMH/FH comparison for the Typhoon and Rafale?
The target for Typhoon was 10MMH/FH I think they were achieving between 12-15MMH/FH last time I checked.
source http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADP010425&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
I had heard that a 20MMH difference would equal a 12 million euros over the life of each aircraft.
Thats over 1.5 billion Euros for a program the size of the Indian deal.
Or how about the number of inspections required over the 6000 hrs of flight hours are required (Typhoon is ~14).
Or number of faults per 1000 flight hours (typhoon was targeted with >400 but has achieved >280)
are there any comparable Rafale figures?.
Cheers
All these add up and are crucial top the next phase of the indian deal.
JwcookFrom what you can actually read on various sources rafale has better weapons (mica-IR, AASM, reco-ng) (and more types) as well as a better radar cross section.
The typhoon does have a better TW ratio and a bigger radar (+40% in terms of modules) around 1000 vs 1421 for the Typhoon according to DSI.
But theses criterion are not the only ones.
The Typhoons aperture is around 70cm and the prototype CAESAR was a 60cm, the number of modules was slated to be between 1400-1500, but some interesting work has been don on sparse arrays, in effect having bald spots for the MMICs.
The new swashplate design gives the potential to fit a few more MMICs in the antenna due to its inclined angle, but costs and cooling are a factor.
The APG-77 has 1500 MMICs the Typhoons Captor-E should be similar in size and capability.
http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/CAPTOR.pdf
Cheers
JwcookDPP needs atleast two vendors or the contract will get cancelled and the whole thing retendered.
IMO IAF wants the Rafale anything and in that case if they pick anything other than a Typhoon alongside the Rafale then that platform would become the L1 (MIG, Gripen, Viper and Hornet). So in a way picking the Typhoon means Rafale becomes the L1 and gets the contract.
While your logic is valid -That logic work both ways… I thought the same thing when Gripen was left out of the competition.
Remember it doesn’t matter which is the more advanced now, its which is cheapest and it isn’t necessarily the Rafale.
Do you know whats involved with the Baselining of the through life costs? its not as simple as comparing the two jets stated costs, the Indians will be putting a weighting on certain aspects.
I think the Typhoon has the edge, but its a close race I grant you.
Cheers
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