JwcookFor an over engineered aircraft it has to be the The Spruce Goose(Hughes H-4 Hercules)… to much engineering was one of its major failings.
JwcookI think the Europeans have gained a great deal in Technology from the US over the last several decades. Which, seems to be lost in this discussion…..:confused:
That’s because the US never formally thanked the UK for the atom bomb, and in fact took the credit for inventing them..:eek:
Youi seem to forget the US has in return gained much from Europe.
Cheers
JwcookParanoid much?
That is a strange statement considering that the evil Americans :dev2: F-16 and F-18 are 20+ year old technology and companies from UK, Italy, The Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark, Norway and Israel are helping develop F-35 technologies. If evil Americans :dev2: were jealously guarding technology, especially 20+ year old technology, they would not offer it for sale.
Err… They did spend 1 Billion making sure they could sell it without worrying about leaking secrets.:diablo:, to their “Partners”
Cheers
JwcookIf, the Typhoon is cheaper than the F-35. Yet, just as capable as some would like us to believe. Why aren’t the customers lining up around the block…….:rolleyes:
UK
Spain
Italy
Germany
Austria
Saudi Arabia
Oman (Soon ish)
That’s over 700 airframes lined up, and if they crack the big India deal that really starts to ramp up the numbers.
If the JSF is such a good deal why are the partners all delaying purchases and drastically reducing their projected numbers?
Let me guess your answer – its because the JSF is so effective you only need 2 and the price keeps going down so fast there going to be giving them away in cornflake packets by the new year.
I’m sure the partners will get what they asked for
JwcookLOL
First, that is only today’s projections. Which, didn’t match yesterdays nor is it likely to match tomarrows.
I knew you finally wake up to the LM accounting methods.
Really, as the British ecomony improves it will likely procure more F-35’s. (along with much of the free world)
You might recall the UK had most of the free world, why would they want to buy it after handing it back to the natives?:dev2:
All that said we do know one thing for sure. The production of the Typhoon will end very shortly. While the F-35 will continue for many years to come.;)
All depends on your definition of shortly, the JSF will shortly be entering Australian service:rolleyes:, the continent of Africa is shortly going to collide with Asia:dev2:.
You might want to cast your jaded eyes to a post I made last year..
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1494446&postcount=88
Spooky huh!!
Cheers
JwcookTry: http://defensetech.org/, the second article from the bottom
Link still broken, are you alluding to the 6 RAF fast jet squadrons story?
LONDON – Britain may halve its fast-jet fleet by 2020 or so, according to the commanding officer of the Royal Air Force’s No. 1 Group.
“We are heading for five Typhoon squadrons and one JSF [Joint Strike Fighter] squadron,” said Air Vice-Marshal Greg Bagwell, who commands the RAF’s air combat group. “It will be a six-squadron world; that’s what’s on the books.”
That could mean 107 Typhoons, plus about 40 F-35C JSFs that support a large operational squadron of 20 to 25 crews, Bagwell said.Typhoon numbers could be clipped even further if Britain and Oman seal a deal to send the Persian Gulf nation about a squadron’s worth of aircraft. The planes could be diverted from an existing RAF order; the question is whether they will then later be replaced, he said.
The Typhoons for Oman should be new build Tranche 3 and IIRC its a 12 plus 12 order (24) and should be announced soon ish…
40 JSF instead of 150! blimey! now my pessimistic figure of ~50 is looking like LM sponsored “its all sunshine and lollipops” brief :diablo:
Cheers
JwcookAre you now your trying to imply. That if the Super Hornet Wins the MMRCA and/or FX2. That it did so by coercion on part of the US Government.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I was not implying anything – just stating a fact, They do have a track record in that department, and I offer for your consideration:-
“Given this potential impact of AESA releasability on the Norway competition, and possibly the Denmark competition,” says a US cable dated 8 July, “we suggest postponing the decision on AESA releasability for the Gripen until after Norway’s decision in December.”
“We must continue to act like an honourable and elegant competitor,” read a cable from the US embassy in Oslo.
If it was all based on purely technical evaluations they wouldn’t have to play these games.
Cheers
JwcookWell, we will see won’t we! I am very confident of my predictions are you of yours????
Typhoon leads in the technical evaluation.. that doesn’t translate into “winner”, the US is big enough to coerce countries into making dumb decisions.
(don’t make me write a list scooter:))
JwcookAs for the Typhoon Tranche 3 the partners have been trying to cut the agreed numbers for sometime. (common knowledge)
You should see the numbers for the JSF! they make your eyes water.
UK from 150 JSF down to a very optimistic 70 (or a pessimistic 50). = a 46% to 66% cut
Where as the Typhoon (even with the unconfirmed tranch 3b cut) = 160/232 = at most a 31% reduction.
That’s counter-intuitive to your argument that the better platform gets more orders.
The sort of savage cuts to orders of the JSF is facing would make Sweeny Todd look like an amateur.
cheers
JwcookProduction volume will lower the costs somewhat: Burbage: “…each time the quantity ordered doubles, the per-unit price will decrease by 25-28 percent.” Whether Lockheed maintains the curve and for how long is open for debate.
If that’s true then the final cost of the end F-35’s will be around $21M USD.. do you think that is a credible figure?
The price curve flattens out at around 1600 units
the steep part at the beginning and flattening out towards the 1600 target.
that means the 25-28% is only true for the first doubling then its a case of diminishing returns.
There are three versions at present, two versions will never reach that magic 1600 figure.. “Cousin” parts excepted.
I doubt the envisioned cost savings will be realised.
From Lockheed Martin’s Code One magazine; back in 1997, one of the early DOD Joint Strike Fighter managers had this to say about the cost of the aircraft in the business plan.
How do production run and other factors relate to cost?
Cost and quantity curves flatten out at about 1,600 airplanes. You also have to consider a learning curve, which also becomes relatively flat after a period of time. Through affordability initiatives, though, we are lowering the learning curve to bring the initial cost down. Another aspect of overall cost is cost of ownership-what it costs to operate the airplane, the number of maintenance personnel required to support the airplane. These factors determine operation and support costs, and they are equally as important as production cost.
These ownership costs are apparently higher than expected.
Cheers
JwcookASRAAM was evaluated by USAF/USN and guess what… it failed to met the requirements !
Eeerrrr, like the very important “Made in the USA” requirement…
The agreement was ~ SRAAM by Europe, LRAAM by the USA, but the US decided against that.
So Europe went with Meteor because the US LRAAM “didn’t meet European requirements.
i.e. ” Honour your agreements” 😉
Cheers
JwcookDear sir,
Its more like this
1. The F-35 detects to typhoons at over 100Miles out. Both F-35s separate by 20 miles
2. The F-35 Push up to mach 1.5 far out of irst or swashplate AESA range.
3. Both F-35s fire but the Typhoons don’t detect them until they go active
1. Is unlikely you’d get 100 miles against a reduced RCS Typhoon (notice how the semi stealth argument can be worked against you…) and even 100nm is a big problem at those speeds to manoeuvre into a firing solution while keeping head on.
Eurofighter veterans now say it was instrumental in a decision to design the Typhoon with an emphasis on nose-on, X-band RCS reduction
2 and 3 are your problem.. how far out does the JSF launch?. think range of AMRAAM
IRST range is over ~100nm for target in reheat.. ~50nm for non reheat.
Unfavourable weather:-
Radar ranges(Toan did this):-
F-35 RCS is using a number of quoted sources… as derived by Toan…0.001m2… Typhoon is around 0.1m2 according to most sources (although one recently claimed 0.5m2). The figures below were mathematically calculated by Toan using the most common publically legitimately stated figures.
The base radar formula used is (RCS1/RCS2)^0.25. So the F-16C reduced RCS is 1.2 m2, standard fighter is 5 m2. (1.2/5)^0.25 = 0.69. Therefore the F-16C can be detected at 69% of radar range as compared with a standard fighter.
CAESAR AESA（EF-2000 Tranch3, post-2015 with 1,500 T/Rs）：
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 18~21 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 32~38 km+
For RCS 0.01 m2 class target: 58~68km+ JSF
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 104~122 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 185~216 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 278~324 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 330~385 km+APG-81 AESA（F-35A/B/C）：
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 28 km+
For RCS 0.01 m2 class target: 50 km+
For RCS 0.05 m2 class target 75km+ Typhoon
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 160 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 240 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 285 km+
It a lot tighter than you’d think with the Typhoons superior AESA radar, and well within margins of error for rough calcs.
You might be interested to know that the Typhoon may have 300 more T/R modules than the JSF’s 1200 and more power too.
Cheers
JwcookSo, let me be clear. Are you stating the Typhoon can detect and Destroy a F-22 Raptor???
If you want a simple yes/no answer the answer is yes…. the results were one sided as you’d expect – but not all one way.:D
Are you trying to tell me the the F-22 is invincible?:)
[B]The F-35 avoided return fire. Because the Typhoon was destroyed by the incoming BVR Missiles from the F-35. Well before the Typhoon even knew it was a Threat.
OK here’s your story:-
A pair of Typhoons, one behind the other, the rear emitting and the front receiving and they don’t manage to pick up the JSF at what in effect would be less than 25 miles. even though the angular difference makes the JSF far less stealthy.
Amazingly the Typhoons gets painted by the JSF LPI radar and targetted (please note the L in LPI) and it doesn’t notice that either.
The JSF is using reheat to accelerate to Amraam launch speed and the Typhoons IRST doesn’t work well enough to pick that out. obviously a useless piece of kit as the F-22 doesn’t have it, and the JSF’s is mounted in the wrong place for AtoA (you might want to note down the cruising/combat heights of the Typhoon and the JSF as this has a bearing on range)
The JSF launces a salvo of Missiles at the Hapless Typhoons who are just cruising along blissfully unaware of the JSF which has had its doors open and is dropping AMRAAMs like confetti, the ASEA radars of the Typhoons are just not good enough to spot those either.
The usual missile avoidance routines are ignored even with the AMRAAMs twanging away their terminal radars away like teenager on a suspender belt.
None of the Typhoons change course so as to avoid the need for the JSF to do any mid course corrections that would take it well in to WVR.
One of the eagled eyed Typhoons pilots sees the AMRAAMS, But heavens above – none of the Typhoons extensive Jamming suite works.. the Jaff or the Towed radar decoyits all useless.
None of the typhoons manages to get a shot off, all four get toasted, which handily negates the JSF having to try and egress the area
and the JSF pilot returns home for tea and medals…:rolleyes:
This is of course Scooter world, I sure your all bright enough to spot where it all falls down for the JSF, it all hinges on stealth and if a pair of Typhoons can detect a JSF at ~25 miles, any further and the Typhoons can run from the AMRAAMs any nearer and the JSF is detectable.
Most sensible people would recognise that speed and supersonic agility are very useful for F-pole, a swashplate design is also useful for turning away while giving mid course updates, and most people would know that the AMRAAM range and detection range overlap.
So its hardly a forgone conclusion.
Plus, who said the F-35 had a lower speed than the Typhoon? I would also add that the F-35 has a great deal of fuel. Which, it can convert into energy unlike the Typhoon. [/B]
[/B]
Er LM say so.
Please bear in mind that it converts fuel much quicker than the Typhoon, do the math and look at the ranges the JSF, That engine in that airframe eats fuel!
Its a bit of a porker isn’t it.
BTW the quote of LPI detection was published in a Keypublishing magazine via email from a source that requested anonymity.
Jwcook[QUOTE=Scooter;1674594]
As for tactics they’re many. Yet, in most cases the F-35 will attack the Typhoon from the Foward Quarter. [/B]
How will it know were the Typhoon is? Typhoons have detected LPI radars before…(F-22) so how are they vectored onto the front quarter without alerting the Typhoons who I suppose are cruising at low speed just to allow the JSF to be able to manage an intercept…?:)
[QUOTE=Scooter;1674594]
If, that fails for whatever reason the F-35 will merge with the Typhoon head on. Firing a IR Missile (likely high off borsight) and then disengage. [/B]
1st why would it merge? lol and how did it avoid the return BVR Missiles? and How will it disengage if its speed is lower than a Typhoon?
So far I see nothing that provides the JSf with the outstanding performance you are promoting.
Cheers
JwcookThere is nothing that says the F-35 can not use jamming or active decoys. It is seldom talked about, because once you use jamming you give away the presence of something going on. I know the F-22A is supposed to used its radar to provide EMP to burn out bad guy’s radars. Smart money says the F-35 will have a similar capability.
Its just that Stealth is talked about as 99% reliable, if active jamming and towed decoys are just as reliable then the JSF stealth is negated.
Thats my argument its that simple really.
Scooter hasn’t answered the big question.. what tactics are used by the JSF??.
He has just stated the Typhoon is slower, and is less agile at supersonic speeds which does tend to dent his credibility somewhat…
BTW I do not concede that the Typhoon or any other none 4.5 Generation Fighter has “Superior Speed and Agility” to the F-35. Which, is not say that some mite match the F-35 in some respects.
😉
Why do you think the Typhoon has that level of instability???
Its a simple question if Stealth is the answer, but I’d like to hear it…:diablo: Scooter please explain…
cheers
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