A lot of that has nothing to do with LockMart or the aircraft. There are a whole mess of factors that can increase the price of any manufactured product like an aircraft. This is why you won’t find a lot of fixed-price contracts in the defense industry, everybody would end up bankrupted!

The F-22 has only one customer and that customer cut the order from 381 to 183. Which, is hardly the fault of Lockheed Martin. Also, the F-35 has a dozen customers with many others showing strong interest!

APPLES AND ORANGES:eek:

Err Guys!!! The congressional Cap stayed the same ie. the $$$ figure, it was the price increases of the F-22 that made only 183 affordable instead of the 295 when the cap was introduced, if that isn’t LM’s fault then who’s fault is it?

Apples and more expensive Apples

C’mon take those LM blinkers off, and smell the roses.

It becomes a question of credibility; who do you want to believe? So far LMA has a pretty good track record in ddelivering the goods, going back to the U-2 program all the way to the F-22. I think I’ll trust them to deliver on the F-35.

So what exactly were LM promising on the F-22 at the same stage of development the JSF is at??..:)

IIRC LM was promising 277 aircraft for the congressional cap price.. its now only 183…

So if they keep their word as history has shows the JSF will be ~at least 30% more expensive than its guesstimated at now

Or we could go on the number to be bought ie. the F-22 was ~750 final result 183 using that ratio the JSF ~3000 – So that’s a healthy 720 beating the Typhoon into second place by a dozen aircraft..:D

So don’t start getting all starry eyed about track records and credibility.. if you look into it then its non too pretty.

Cheers

The F-35 Program is the most complex fighter program in Modern History. Besides developing a State of the Art 5th Generation Strike Fighter. Its doing so with three very different models. With versions that include Land Based, Naval Based, and STOVL Based Designs. Which, is a major precedent in Military Aviation! Further, while the complex JSF Program has suffer with some cost overruns and delays. Which, modern fighter program hasn’t??? For example didn’t such programs as the Typhoon, Rafale, LCA, and Raptor all have similar problems. Hey, if memory serves me even vaunted F-22 crashed at one point! Yet, it is considered the BEST Air Superiority Fighter EVER! Yet, at this stage in development. The JSF Program has three aircraft flying with no major design issues. Also, many more are currently on the production line with it building up speed very quickly………….:D:D:D

Errrrr, thats exactly the point I’m making, all fighters have problems during design and development – but its something that LM asserts is not the case with the JSF?????? They made the same claims with the F-22 with the result you see today ie 60 non combat coded f-22’s.

The JSF test phase is quote as ‘being aggressive’ from LM:D, and lunacy by others. just look at the quoted bold bits above!!.

What is the point of any testing if they are that confident the design won’t change, the reason is simple – programs are harder to kill if there are aircraft in production….

Lets see how it pans out after march!!:dev2:

Cheers

A reduction in F-35 numbers in the UK? How, if anything we should be buying more than has been proposed, B’s for the Navy, A’s for the RAF, about 6 sqaudrens of 16 for each, plus the extras.

Welll you don’t need attrition reserves just buy them off the peg..

just equip the carriers.. 82 airframes should just do it..

Cheers

No & NOBODY EVER SAID IT WAS!

Of course the REAL problem is people EXAGGERATING what strealth costs.

Don’t forget there are also people with vested interests in UNDERESTIMATING what stealth costs, and EXAGGERATING what its benefits are..

Those with vested interest are the Manufacturer, and the investor-purchasers…

Manufacturer because they want to sell their product, and the investor-purchaser because they have invested heavily in the program and don’t wish to avoid being seen as gullible.

So Mr Sweetman has much less of a reason to be biased than they do….

According to the current plan only 1% of testing will be done before they start building production JSF’s.. now that’s confidence or idiocy …:eek:

Potential Purchasers have been briefed on the capabilities of an untested aircraft without a firm price, (which they have invested heavily in) and they declared its the best.. Do you ever wonder about that??. or is it a faith thing.

Cheers

Carlo has an F-22 fixation..!!

Carlo should be pushing the ADF into the arms of BAE or the Neuron project, which gives you the capability that Carlo craves without the squishy thing at the pointy end being exposed to very bad things.

Taranis or Neuron partner! or a similar project by Australia, but note that it would only be possible for Australia in the short term if Europeans or the US gave the Australian defence force access to their stealth data!!. or they ‘borrow it’ from the tests conducted by BAE in Woomera:)

A long range autonomous bomber would ease Carlo’s fears of the Indians or the Chinese invading down through Asia to grab Australia’s supply of macadamia’s or whatever would motivate India/China to start WWIII.

It would also prove one way or another if that stealth technology transfer is as easily available to Australia as Carlo thinks it is…

He will argue the sky is pink if the result is F-22’s for Australia and dragging the UK into it is totally absurd.. they don’t want it – they didn’t want the F-117, and watch this space re the F-35 :diablo: (ie. expect a sharp reduction in numbers).

I think Australia should buy only one F-22 !!! so Carlo can then concentrate on the real world, perhaps a fund could be started and once it reaches US$140m Carlo could be dispatched to the US to get the deal done:) ( its easy according to him just read his previous articles).

That has the benefit of testing our special relationship and getting rid of Carlo for a decade or two.:):):):)

So who wants to chip into the F-22 unctuous Carlo Kopp Fund, A highly noble cause but does have a bad acronym 😀

Cheers

Oh, I’m sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?.:D

No one has answered the core question

Is stealth free?

Its a simple yes/no answer, the answer is of course no, but that’s really difficult for some to admit…why? – because it aligns with what Bills piece was about… and the logical next question is – ‘what does it cost…’

Well done Mr Sweetman for cutting to the crux of the matter…

Cheers

How many non-stealthy assets will survive against S-300/400/etc…?
Survivability can’t be dismissed in the equation either.

True thats why its a big equation thats why Bill is highlighting the tradeoffs.

EA-6B, EA-18G, EC-130, etc….along with unmanned assets in the coming years.
I suspect on the first day of war, there’d be a higher than 60 percent availability, if it were of our time and choosing. That number isn’t taking into account the likely purchase of 60 more Raptors, and the numerous F-35s that not only the US military will have, but those of our allies.

Again- there’ll also be F-35s in that mix, EA-18Gs, stand off weapons, cruise missiles, along with hundreds of Super Hornets, and F-15Es. Remember, you don’t have to clear every every target to allow other assets to get through, as long as certain corridors have been sanitized. You can then focus your efforts on the other targets as you expand the campaign.

So your argument really only applies for the USAF as a complete package – all other air forces are unable to afford those necessary assets (as I suspect the US is unable to afford them)

Do you or anyone else here think that stealth is free??

Cheers