JwcookDo you want cheap or capability?
Comments from the Norwegian government stated that the JSF was both cheaper and more capable in every area.
People are scratching their heads mainly about the costing model used – if the potential offsets for a 3000 unit JSF production run are used to offset the estimated low purchase price, and then compare that to the Gripens NG fixed price while adding NATO compatible equipment costs of ~4 billion then the model used may be considered biased.
Plus the scenario’s chosen to evaluate the aircraft had been changed a number of times (The reason why Eurofighter copped the hump and left the competition stating Bias and that bias was towards the JSF).
Now if the perception of Eurofighter GmbH was correct and the competition was bias what would you expect the result of the evaluation to be?
Answer:- JSF cheaper over 30 years and more effective….
Now its hardly conclusive, but the Gripen has a reputation of low costs, it must have taken some fancy footwork for the JSF to be 20-30 billion cheaper over 30 years.:eek:
Its a fair question about how they managed that??.
Cheers
JwcookIts that easy is it? You can just design a UAV to have the same A2A capability as a Raptor or JSF?:rolleyes:
Err you can design a UAV better for AtoA.
Main reasons include:-
The Raptor/JSF is a BVR beast, the sensors provides the pilot the information and based on the sensors and ROE he decides to press the fire button. The pilot shouldn’t be getting withing eyeball range.
There are already auto attack functions where the Autopilot will recommend attack profiles to get into the best position, this can be done at greater turn rates without the squishy thing up front, and without a cockpit which is a major RCS hotspot.
What makes you think you can’t you design a stealthier and/or faster non manned aircraft rather than a manned one?
how else do you explain the interest in Neuron/Taranis/Global hawk/X-45…
I’m not saying its easy, but it is possible now.
Cheers
JwcookThe only wrong choice by SAAB was staying in the competition.
Eurofighter saw the writing on the wall and bailed out (and that action now seems well justified), the Norwegians were using both of them as stalking horses to get the best deal from LM, and they used them to good effect.
Be interesting to see what comments come out from Sweden, as the Gripen NG reputation has been somewhat tarnished by the ‘results’ of the Independent evaluation, I would expect pointers to where any perceived bias lies from those comments.
I would bet they wish they had of left with Eurofighter;)
Cheers
JwcookRe capabilities and design philosophies
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=58978
The vice chairman, who is a fighter pilot himself, compared the capabilities of a Predator unmanned aerial vehicle to those of a piloted fighter aircraft, illustrating a better way to fight an illusive, dispersed enemy.
The UAV, he said, “costs about a third of what the fighter costs. It uses about a third of the fuel the fighter uses. Instead of being airborne for two hours, it’s airborne for 20 hours. It requires no tankers [to refuel]. It can be flown from any part of the Earth and you don’t have to be in that part of the Earth.” UAVs, Cartwright continued, can track an enemy, kill an enemy with missiles, and record whatever it does.
Cheers
JwcookSo were Eurofighter right to withdraw from the competition in Norway? the reason given was they felt the decision was already made for the JSF and they kept moving the requirements to give the JSF the edge???, it would just need Gripen to say the odds were stacked, to ice the cake:dev2:
From my limited access to Norwegians and google translation this is what I’m concerned with.
I think the price assesments will need closer scrutiny for two main reasons:-
The probability of a price rise isn’t seen a very likely!!.:eek:
and
What were they comparing the JSF to? with regard to life cycle costs, was Gripen even costed?.
Can anyone also confirm the offsets were subtracted from the total costs, and what guarantee has Norway got that they will remain the producer of those parts if exchange rates/competition costs changes?. (remember the no workshare promise)
Its interesting as the time lines are also mentioned, I think they advised an order be placed earliest in 2009 or better wait till 2014.
Cheers
JwcookHow many of the UAV’s are capable of full spectrum aerial warfare?:rolleyes:
That’s the point they don’t have to be full spectrum, they can be tailor made for a task, because they don’t have a squishy thing up front they can do things a manned aircraft cannot do and are cheaper to design and produce because of the lack of squishy support needed.
The idea that you fly a manned aircraft over heavily defended areas is fundamentally wrong, a standoff missile will do the job 95% of the time, the other 5% can be done by loitering Ucavs with less risk to aircrew.
Re fighter aircraft, if you were designing a fighter would the JSF be the result?
If you want a pure fighter then the JSF isn’t it, that’s what the F-22 is for.
If you want a pure ground support aircraft then the JSF isnt it, the A-10 or Pucara would be better.
Cheers
JwcookIf there is any mistake, it should be European countries’ (except Russia) giving up for developing 5th Gen stealth fighter. While most airforces in the world today believe that the real stealthy capability as a necessity for their future fighters after 2015, the European fighter manufacturers (except Russian) just can’t provide such a product with enough maturity.
So, the history of F-16’s overwhelming victory over F-1E and JA37 in the international market is happening once again.
Hmmmm, I think the JSF is the last big manned strike aircraft project, most first world nations are working on stealthy UAV’s that will do the first day of war jobs.
6th gen UAV’s are here sooner than you think.
JwcookAre you guys serious about starting to count seconds? I mean, who cares?
You can as well paint all aircraft’s rivets red and claim it to be a design advantage… 😉 The whole EF vs Rafale comparison contest has gotten beyond grotesque.
I only care when 8 seconds is really double digits… and I like the idea of red rivets – but only if its on the Typhoon :diablo:
BTW you’d be surprised at the number of stop watches there are in the chalets at international airshows.
Jwcookhi
I found this video on the net regarding the trial undergoing in Switzerland :
http://www.kriensnet.ch/videos/EADS_Eurofighter_131108.wmvCan anyone explain what’s going on ? I would think of a maintenance checkup, but as I’ve never seen yet such a video I don’t know in the end. Impressive as well the fact that the plane doesn’t move at PC, unless there’s a reason (like a possibility to have PC started not at full power?) ??
Thanks in advance 🙂
Does PC?? = Plenum Chamber Burning??? = Reheat = Afterburning.
Its not moving because its bolted to the ground, the arrestor hook is attached by cables into the runway.
Its a ground engine check possibly after an engine change.
Cheers
JwcookSure it is..? first you start rolling and then plug in the burners and only then start the count….
its a 10 seconds take off.. – which is impressive but its not going all the way up, it just rolls over..
Take a look at this
JwcookArthuro – I’m not saying the Rafale is good or bad… just asking why its had no exports when it has been marketed so aggressively, there must be some good reason?.
I would have put money on it selling a few….. as for the technical catastrophe of the Eurofighter.. what was that?.
and Spitfire9, the run is 2, but a not inconsequential run with 15 + 72 + ? (another 72 or more for the Saudi’s).
The total number of Typhoons at present is slated at 707+ that’s bigger than most other current programs and only beaten by the JSF’s projected total.
cheers
Jwcook111 vs. 0 in Typhoon vs. Rafailure. :diablo:
Oh thats cruel… Funny but cruel, if fact its that good I might use it in future:eek:.
I often wondered at Dassaults reasoning, at the time it did seem fairly sensible for them to pull out of the Eurofighter partnership, Dassault could rightly expected exports of their Rafale, but this hasn’t happened, this market is very tough and you have to wonder why DassaultRafale hasn’t won in at least the markets they are strong in??
I expect the Rafale to export some! but which country is going to be first to break the Typhoon export run with a Rafale order?., there has been plenty of speculation of sales, but nothing signed yet.
It would be very funny if the first export order was from the UK, (Only if the JSF goes pear shaped…)
Cheers
JwcookThis is my first post on this forum so forgive me if I screw up!
Yesterday, the attached flew past our window as explained in my Phlog. Is it a Typhoon and how common is it to have one fly past your window?
Well depends really, if you live in Afghanistan then that would be rare…:diablo:
Nice shot though.
Cheers
JwcookJwcookAh you shouldn’t have used a french time machine…:diablo: I’m only joking Tmor!!.
I know what you wrote was tounge in cheek, but this is a forum to discuss what people have heard and seen.:eek:
I have no doubt some of it is absolute rubbish, but there are some people here with good insight into programs, Don’t get too bothered by those that make stuff up.
The fun of it is sorting out who is who and who knows what.
BTW you didn’t see how many Typhoons the swiss were going to order on your travels did you?:)
Cheers
Sign In
