JwcookIt didn’t say the F-22 lost, it said it won- in close combat- against a Typhoon that has HMCS, AIM-132, and Pirate, while the F-22 doesn’t even have AIM-9X or a HMCS. So what do these claims REALLY tell us?
Blimey you got all the equipment used from a couple of comments??? I’m impressed.:diablo:
and I seem to recall it was the Typhoon who won the WVR DACT that didn’t happen?? 😮 LOL
Lets be honest the F-22 has to dominate at every aspect or its a waste of money, you can’t have a fighter 1/2 the price winning can you.
Cheers
JwcookAccording to the same officer the score of the eurofighters could even become better against the raptors, if the weather was better (less clouds) as the formers were using the PIRATE/IRST to spot the F-22s, and many times that was not possible.
Can anybody confirm or decline that?
Hmmm. Well these must be new DACT exercises “that never happened” because the previous DACT in Nevada “that never happened” were not using PIRATE, so this must have “not have happened” much more recently :diablo:
I’d be interested in the exact wording he used when describing these meetings “that haven’t happened”, was anyone else present who can verify the context?
JwcookNot sure if theres a warning light, but any pressure lost can be displayed with the errors, and possible remedial actions, if both are gone you in deep a serious trouble. not sure if theres a backup or reserves.
Cheers
JwcookF-22 didn’t complete OT&E until 2004 and was not approved for full rate production until 2005. Congress approved LRIP in 2001 because manufacturing skills are perishable and you cannot lay off a production workforce that learned how to build the nine EMD airplanes, then expect to get them to come back to work several years later without having to re-learn how to build stealthy airplanes.
Yes that’s why I pulled you up about the OT&E
The need for education is strong in this thread…
The “proof of the pudding” for US military aircraft development is an activity called Operational Test and Evaluation, OT&E, OT&E occurs at the tail end of the flight test phase Their purpose is to take the first few LRIP airplanes and wring them out as they would in actual combat usage. OT&E tests the complete weapon system from flight performance, to weapons, to EW, to communications, to navigation, to sensors, to maintenance turn around and logistics support. Discrepancies found during OT&E must be corrected or the contractor not only misses a huge milestone payment, but isn’t allowed to continue production.
Over half of the F-22′ s had been built, so obviously they were allowed to continue production for whatever reasons, as will the F-35 if it doesn’t meet targets, as it just too important to stop. OT&E can just be modified/adjusted favourably for certain aircraft.
The Pentagon is rushing to begin production of the F-22 fighter without first meeting all testing requirements imposed by Congress. This report exposes the plan to recommend releasing $2.1 billion for 10 F-22 fighters even though the aircraft has not met as many as five out of 11 testing criteria required to be met before funding is released. This first wave of the production process, known as low-rate initial production, is expected despite Congress’ clear directive in the defense budget bills of 2000 and 2001 that F-22 production funding only be released if all 11 testing criteria are met.
My only point being that OT&E is pretty variable when it comes to LRIP, and stopping production, I’m sure the F-35 will pass OT&E one way or another, (if it gets that far:diablo:)
Cheers
JwcookI think you’ll find that 80 aircraft were built up to that point, the production wasn’t stopped, as was the assertion when testing doesn’t meet targets.
You might find that the aircraft will always meet the target, or the target will meet the performance one way or another it will pass.
That’s why there are a number of different flavours of F-22, some of which will never see combat, the first 60 are a nightmare of differing build standards, and while some efforts have been made to bring them into line there are a number of oddbod airframes that will only ever be used for training.
Cheers
JwcookDiscrepancies found during OT&E must be corrected or the contractor not only misses a huge milestone payment, but isn’t allowed to continue production.
Hmm like the F-22 :dev2:
production continued…while the time between software failures wasn’t meeting targets, right up till they changed the targets!! etc etc.
Cheers
JwcookIt would only be a waste of money if the production run stops at 180/200.
And it would be a waste of money if upgrades are not proceeding in a timely manner.
Here’s the real reason, It will only be a waste of money if you don’t buy something else you need!!.
What do you think you need more?
Tankers.
Transport aircraft.
Armoured Humvees.
Coin aircraft.
Body armour.
Anti IED support equipment.
How many US troops have been lost due to enemy air action in the last 50 years?, how many to ground forces?
This is where you will find the answer.
Cheers
JwcookI was thinking of a Swedish- or Russian-style LPI fighter-fighter datalink, preferably with pencil-beam antennas (like the Harris MADL), preferably IP-based. I think the ability to form ad-hoc multistatic active/passive radars is vital for a modern fighter, be it a LO-platform or not. A look at some BLOS, a broadband satcom system, might also be justified.
Hmm Re the SATCOM there was an Ericsson/EADS CASA program for Satcom that was proposed as an offset for the Norwegian Eurofighter offering in mid 2006, I guess it may now have gone elsewhere:rolleyes:, plus Tyra had a Datalink network concept and demo already worked out at that time.
and EADS has the following :-
“At present the enhancement and technology insertion is focused on the following capabilities:
Communications (Wide Band Data Links including imagery, SATCOM) “
Who is actually doing the work is a mystery to me but it seems to be in hand.
Cheers
JwcookRe the canards.. they really are forplanes and are not really designed to interact with the wing in that manner, they are there to control the Typhoon in pitch only, if they somehow cause a good vortex flow across the wing then thats fine and dandy – but its not its primary function.
TVC’s main advantage is it lessens trim drag, you can get a healthy reduction in drag from using TV, the post stall, and other maneuveral advantages are I’m afraid pretty slim.
And I was under the impression that the Typhoon enjoyed extremely good cooperative engagement capabilities, what specifically do you think needs improving??.
Cheers
JwcookIt should be noted the Typhoons canards are not used to make the aircraft pitch up quite the reverse.
The airframe is unstable and really wants to pitch up very fast indeed all the time, the canards are continually fighting this tendency with tiny movements.
If a rapid pitch up is commanded by the pilot then the canards take a break of a few milliseconds and the aircraft pitches up rapidly, the FCS then commands the canards to arrest the pitch at a level that doesn’t stress the airframe.
You can actually see the canards pointing downwards against the loop which is counter intuitive to the way normal canards behave.:eek:
Cheers
JwcookIts quite funny really.
You can bet the results are fairly accurate given the RoE’s etc…
The thing is that RoE are sometimes restrictive for good reason, it all very well taking potshots from BVR but this is sometimes not possible. (You only have to have a planeload of nuns in the wrong place:eek:).
If you keep splashing the aircraft of the rather large nasty neighbor of your area of operations, which potentially causes the minor conflict to escalate into something you are not prepared for.
Witness the near disaster with a 707 in the Falklands war, where an Argentine 707 recon aircraft had been shadowing the Task force for several days, a harrier was sent up to ward off the 707 as it was unarmed and diplomatic talks were still underway. later there was a ships long range radar contact, no IFF, not on civilian flight path, same track as previous, and NCR identified it as a 707, and repeated radio warnings to back off were ignored.
Missiles were targeted, but the commander decided to use a Harrier to close to WVR to make sure 100%.. which was lucky for the crew and passengers of the commercial 707 as it flew to south America.
This one incident could has scuppered the UK’s operation.
By all means weight the context of the tests in the results, but do not dismiss them lightly.
even if you use the Optics on the JSF, you are still too close, you need speed to get the hell out of there if it turns out to be bad odds.
cheers
JwcookYes that’s the whole point be damn sure before you pull the trigger… If it was a US aircraft then 150 rounds would be way way too small:dev2:
But I’ll wager that 150 rounds of 27mm is more than enough for anything too small for a bomb to handle.
Cheers
JwcookThe max load out is supposed to be ~150 rounds.
Cheers
JwcookNot much use to Norway which intends coming to a decision between F-35 and Gripen at the beginning of 2009 IIRC.
Funny how they can ‘make a decision’ when one has a price and the other doesn’t… perhaps the decision is already made and price doesn’t enter into it.
Perhaps Eurofighter GmbH were right to pull out.. I wonder what the key triggers were for the decision (its been mentioned that offsets were different/ommitted/favoured for the LM bid, but to what extent?)
cheers
JwcookThe only thing I have heard was that the CFT’s had very little effect..
and that it would give the Typhoon a 25% increase in range… 25% of what I just don’t know.!!
Cheers
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