swerve, QED.

echo, yes we won’t come close to today’s Russian Navy because we’re so far ahead. It helps that we can put our ships to sea, for one thing, and that they don’t keep sinking will all hands lost.

EDITED the insult out which happened to be ban-worthy

As a side note, keep dreaming of the Royal Navy even being about 1/2 of the Northern Fleet of the RuN.

Umm…no? You need to do more than simply “put a hole in one”. The internal structure is meant to have portions sealed off in case of just that scenario to allow the ship to stay afloat. A sensible solution is the Chinese ASBM with cluster munitions, to mangle the flight deck and score a mission kill. Or you can use a nuclear tipped Kh-22 or the like, that’d be a sensible option as well. But to state that simply holing one with what, a torpedo I assume, will sink it, is asinine. Multiple holes, or a nuke of some sort, that’ll sink it eventually. Surface or airburst nukes aren’t even going to sink it in a lot of cases, we proved that in testing already, and that was with much weaker WWII era vessels. They didn’t sink en masse until we figured out to blow up the bomb UNDER the water! You will irradiate the flight deck and likely make it non-operational for sure, but even a nuke blast above the surface isn’t going to guarantee an actual sinking.

A single 1500lbs+ warhead hit on the deck would be sufficient to stop air wing operations. That’s pretty much sufficient to render the carrier useless.

That assumes that there was chronological design parity though Echo. There wasn’t. Russian SSN technology still hasn’t fully caught up with American and the Oscar was no SSN!. Two reactors….twin screws….guess what that adds up to and why do you think the newer designs coming through are all single screw?.

Parity was there buddy. Victor III is a late 1970s product. The LA class sub is what, 3 years younger approximately?

The Oscar II is a twin-hull design, and a big boat, AND an evolution of design from the short-lived Oscar I. I’d believe you if you told the Oscar I was noisy, logic dictates the Oscar II fixed these issues.

You really hate the Russians, poor old guy. They all got it wrong, every single one of them huh?

Thats because its not a fact!.

It’s very relevant facts. The Oscar II is a hell of a lot newer.

Battle exercise of having the bloody submarine at action stations!. Do you think the crew are allowed to run up and down having a party when they are undertaking firing drills?!. SURTASS caught Kursk at 300km and that is PUBLIC record when Kursk was at action stations i.e closed up!. The 650km range of P-700 is valueless because they cannot self designate. Relying on offboard targetting is a mugs game because it ties a discrete asset into going INdiscrete in order to receive enabling capability for its weapons. Absurd!.

The SS-N-19 CAN self-designate, this is the job of the lead missile. . . That’s basics.

No that was THE tactic. The Alfa’s were defensive interceptor subs that never worked right. The open water SSN’s were the Victors, the RTMK’s got the ‘good stuff’. After Walker blew the fact that the -1 and -II boats were targets wherever they went, and the 671’s got quieter 33 sqdn, IIRC, out of Gadzhievo was tagged every time it sortied by someone. They were the SSN top dogs and they had pretty much only the one anti-surface tactic.

It would be absurd to think that there was only one tactic the USSR had for its SSNs.

Agree or disagree on what?. The Russians know their targetting is in the wastebin…they are actively trying to do something about it!. Or they at least were until the oil prices dropped through the floor. Besides what does this have to do with me pointing out the fact that I never said the USN was invincible?.

I don’t know anything about that. They seem to be quite fine with their targeting from what I can tell. What are they doing about it exactly?

They are replacing Legenda, great. . . That hasn’t dried up from what I have read.

Tu-22M3 have sufficient radar range to engage huge targets with Kh-22M/Kh-32/Kh-15 missiles.

Other long-range systems have inertial + ARH at their disposal.

I also have not seen any evidence to counter Tu-142 aircraft acting as target designators.

SS26,

Well I have served with men who deployed up north. I know what they did. I know when they did certain things. I know which ships were involved and I know what was brought back. Some of it would shock you….and get me jailed under breach of OPSEC then and the UK OSC now. I’ve already stated one thing on this thread that I’m not entirely certain is public domain, but, should be timed-out enough not to be an issue.

If you have an ability to be objective and an open mind I’m sure Google is your friend – there are operators out there you can talk to. If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend I’m just a big USN fanboy who’s mean and nasty go for it. I’d recommend putting me on your ignore list.

You have served with ONE side of the equation. Don’t pretend to know every in and out of Soviet naval warfare, as its hardly something you are privy to.

There is nothing lumbering about an assault that can be directed from more or less any point on the world oceans. Strategic mobility will make it virtually impossible for any opponent to successfully defend against an all arms US offensive.

There is everything lumbering about a fleet hauling its way across the entire Pacific Ocean LOL! 😀

Or the Atlantic Ocean, for that matter . . .

This is very simple: Russia would never launch a first strike against the US because the end result would be no Russia rather than a Russia that is just even more humiliated than it is today. if you want to believe that Russia is suicidal then feel free but you are wrong.

Attacking Russia is suicidal for the US too in the long term. You still don’t see this since you live in fantasy land. The supreme 10 trillion plus economy could be destroyed in hours. Oh what a shame and stupid move that would be for the US LOL! 😀

Again, how many launch platform are there and having surrendered the worlds oceans they will be easy to defend against. Post sources providing the range.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16088

Thread from this forum. Also, google all news about Yasen SSN. You will see for yourself.

Haha, Russian reserve units! Have you seen the state of the active fleet! its falling apart at the seems! If Russia has all these stashed satellites and launch vehicles you say they have prove it.

The people in Iraq and Afghanistan are too much for the US too handle, Russian reserve units won’t be any worse.

LOL, US defense spending is magnitudes above Russia’s, its economy stronger, its population bigger and not imploding, its servicemen do more training and are better equipped in every way. Russia is nothing more than the broken shadow of what the Soviet Union used to be, a barely viable entity fast becoming little more than a giant North Korea in both importance and power whilst it is even further eclipsed by the US and as India, China and the European Bloc sail past it leaving it standing.

Hahahaha, yeah okay. Sorry that Russia makes you feel small. It’s a common occurrence.

I never said it was hard to move AD systems around, what I said it was hard to do was to actually create an all embracing weakness free AD network. Reality is that any AD network will always have holes n it and they can and will be exploited.

Lines of Tomahawk missiles can’t exploit AD weaknesses.

Not at all, the article that was posted is simply utter rubbish, cling to it if you will but it does you no favours as it is so weak.

So that’s what you call instances that screw over your dream of the invincible USN? :rolleyes: 😀

This has been covered multiple times, strategic movement gives the attacker a choice of time and place thus enabling him to take advantage of weaknesses in the defenders position. At the moment of attack the position will be revealed but if the cBG is not where the defender thinks it is and its missiles and plnes are flying through holes in the AD network then it has more than paid for itself. To argue that strategic mobility is useless is ludicrous.

The TLAMs won’t be anywhere near their targets when they are found, and the attacker will have no real surprise as the defender would be ready for an escalation. Targets that are in prime danger, and of prime importance to the defenders war machine would be well defended by point-defense systems well in advance of this lumbering assault you have devised.

What Tsar Putin says and what he will actually do are two very different things: think rationally about this, your economy is going down the pan but you and your people are still alive and your cities standing, why would then decide to destroy your country by initiating MAD?

Ah yes, the beginning of a real Russophobe. Tsar Putin. Good one. :rolleyes:

Your analysis is simply horrid, have you not even considered the other side of this? Would the US now, risk getting obliterated over some useless political quarrel with minimal economic gain it is pursuing with the likes of an idiot administration like that of Bush? Please. Do not make me laugh. The moment the Russians threaten to use nukes, it is LOSE-LOSE. Sitting and letting the economy get worse and worse over US blockade would be LOSE-WIN, and LOSE on the Russian side. Guess what the Russians choose? It sure isn’t being the only loser.Take your fantasies to the bar tonight, please.

About 3000km (the 5000 you are currently wetting yourself over only applied to the prop powered version), whilst useful it will not enable the Russian to inflict the sort of damage that the USN is capable of doing simply due to the very limited number of launch platforms that Russia has by comparison.

No, the Kh-101 is 5000KM range. Unless you have otherwise evidence. The Yasen and other boats have 3100mile range weapons (4960KM) as per all sources, meaning that the Kh-101 is coming around in many forms.

Yes, every satellite that gets put up gets tracked by NORAD and given an id; check out Pavel Podvigs site.

Where is this link to the archine on Podvig’s forum? Also, I was referring to inventory on hand.

Evidence echo, show us that there are stashes of such satellites and the required launch platforms to get anywhere near the number needed. There is none as storing launchers is simply not commercially viable. Your feelings are useless without evidence.

Stashes are one thing, while a handy supply is another. Even if they aren’t on completely ready form, their components exist, and while the US plans this grandiose disaster of yours (mobilizing their reserve crap, remember?) the Russians are going to get their birds up, and commission their reserve units too, if they even feel it is necessary.

We have already covered this, the Soviet Union is a completely different beast to the bankrupt, under-invested, economically weak Russia with a collapsing population that we see today.

Yes, I was waiting for this. The Russia is weak garbage. Take this garbage to the bar with your buddies if you have nothing better to talk about there, which I imagine you don’t. :rolleyes: Hey, wait, was it Russia that just cancelled the actually capable 5th gen figther? No, didn’t think so. Want to talk about unsustainable defense spending, look no further than the US of A.

No its actually very hard and very silly to suggest otherwise.

Yeah! It’s EASY to sail around the world on something the size of a small town. On the other hand, it’s SO hard to move some point-defense systems and long range SAMS to cover your air bases on roads. You are .. truly something my friend. :rolleyes:

And you think the USN would be doing nothing?

No, they are mobilizing those reserve ships remember? While the defender barricades the points of conflict at his shores. 😀

No it does not, what SS-26 posted is little short of garbage.

Did a good job of poking some nice holes in the “USN is invincible” garbage.

But your “fair” method of choosing evidence doesn’t help here. 😀

It has some evidence…just no real understanding of what its describing.

It uses a lot of words to state that the USN in 2005 was still heavily weighted towards blue-water combat and needed to shift towards dealing with littoral threats. Something so facile its barely worth the comment and a swift flick through a Janes book would tell you the same thing!.

Most of the rest is just the odd apocryphal tale of how effective SSK’s are under exercise conditions. Thats not really evidence of anything other than the fact that the conditions of the exercise were set to allow the SSK’s their shot at the heavies!.

Same thing we see all the time on here really….people with links to great websites and little clue of what they are reading on them!.:cool:

You are leaving out:

1) That the “oh my god twin-screw” Oscar II is actually an excellent boat that has tracked plenty of US CBGs – much more than we know I’d bet.

2) That the Victor III effectively practiced tracking US forces.

Both of which speak volumes of how capable the Soviet/Russia equipment is in dealing with the Americans on any realistic level.

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Strategic movement useless? What? Startegic movement is one of the most useful assets one can have! This has already been covered anyway, and how can firing Tomahawks not contribute to a war effort?

It’s a good way to give away your position and will not make anyone the size of Russia or China back down. That’s a lose-lose right there.

No it would not, no country, with the exception of the most deranged Islamist ones would invite complete nuclear annihilation upon themselves in response to economic degradation……..fact.

No, that’s your little fantasy world. Sorry, but the USSR is gone.

Russia now says it will use nuclear weapons to defend itself FIRST.

So the US are deranged Islamists, since they will allow themselves to get plastered into oblivion by pissing off the Russians. Good one! 😀 :rolleyes:

How? If Russia has surrendered the worlds oceans it will have serious problems just getting the handful of launch platforms it actually has in a position to launch such missiles.

Do you have any clue as to the range of the Kh-555 and Kh-101?

Russia can hit GUAM from Kamchatka. . .

This has been covered before, Russia has no where near the required space tracking assets to undertake any sort of realistic search and track operation against an at sea CVBG. On this issue you have repeatedly refused to answer the facts put to you by multiple posters in this thread.

What do you know about Russia’s space assets? :rolleyes:

No really, what do you? Do you have inventory?

Something tells me if they felt something big coming, it wouldn’t take much to launch a few Cosmos satellites from Plesetsks with plenty of ELINT birds.

You know, from the country that basically monopolizes space launches? :rolleyes:

Simply not true, neither side has the advantage, especially when one side has the strategic mobility offered by multiple CBG’s with SSN’s and SSGN’s.

Tell that to the Germans in WW2! :rolleyes:

Sure, but they will never plug all the holes, once you start laying down air defences t becomes very clear very quickly that it is significantly more challenging than just filling theoretical circles on a map. In addition to topography, geography, even geology such a network is likely to have to deal with intensive EW warfare too.

EW works both ways.

Defending key targets isn’t that hard if you plan in advance.

Assuming such a scenario ever happened the US would initiate a massive mobilisation including the reserve fleet, forget 1-2, you would see 10+ along with dozens of SSN’s and the navy would only be part of an integrated response drawing in USAF assets as well. With the coming of the F-35B on the amphibs this situation gets even worse for you as the USN will have the ability to supplement its CVN’s with smaller strike carriers by simply loading the amphibs up as such.

Oh good, so they would give months of planning to Russia or China to set up defenses, launch additional recon assets, and mine the crap out of important waters. Perfect! 😀

Jonesey has provided considerably more evidence and insight on this issue than you have. In fact I admire his patience, every time you repeat one of you points he calmly rebuts it with overwhelming evidence, facts and analysis.

What SS-26 posted makes Jonesy’s “analysis” and “evidence” look like a drop in the pond.