When was the IOC for the R-37/KS-172 again?:rolleyes:
Why do you all keep harping on these missiles, when they were clearly not designed with Fighters in mind. IF they can hit a manuevering target, IT’S NOT gonna be at 400km. The R-77 has been a disappointment, which is why the R-27ER is preferred.

They will still have a far longer range than any AIM-120 variant. The larger warhead and 12G target hit capability make them very dangerous.

The R-77 wasn’t really a disappointment because it was inadequate, it matched the AIM-120C models fine, but the Russians figured they needed something more powerful, hence the new versions were put into the works.

IOC for the R-37M/KS-172 will be sooner than any JRADM, and don’t forget there’s 2 fifth-gen missiles in the works for the T-50. These will easily exceed the R-74 and definitely leave all other short range IR missiles far behind.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html#Vympel_R-37__AA-13_Arrow <—- R-37 in production according to this source.

Below is the reference of the Su-35 carrying “long range missiles”

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html <– They are barely putting the AIM-120C7 into service!

The AIM-120D has a longer range than the RVV-AE-PD.

Evidence or get outta here.

When the JDRADM comes online, there won’t be any Russian AAM of similar capabilities.

IOC of that? LOL? Paper missile for another decade. By then the Russian long range AAMs will be around, and the 5th gen missiles will be also.

:rolleyes:

You regularly make more fantastic claims than this.

You shouldn’t be talking after that “stealth-loitering” comment you pulled which automatically discredited your whole collection of “knowledge” on the matter. 😀

Didn’t we deduce that the Russian official denied SELLING nuclear subs?

Leasing is another thing . . .

The likelihood of the USAF attacking Russia is something right around nil.

Right – but the defense systems are made to work in a network that Russia possesses, so attacking a little nation with F-22s that can only use a few S-400 systems isn’t impressive by any means.

Stealthy aircraft can loiter looking for these sites much longer than legacy aircraft, and as soon as one emits, it’s gonna be in a world of hurt.

You are right, a world of hurt for the fighter! If the fighter is in the area and flying around looking for things for too long – then it will be detected by anything from another radar further away, AWACS far away, to a guy with binoculars and ears, a small SAM system will light up and detect it (even an F-22 or F-35, if it’s nearby – since it’ll be scanning the bottom of the jet where the RCS is big), and in that case, the fighter is going to get attacked before it can even react.

Do you think F-22/35s are gonna fly in blind without any preparation or recent ISR info, or that they won’t take into considerations that traps may be out there. In any event, it’s much harder to set a trap if it’s your foe that has the element of surprise.

ISR is all nice and dandy, but mobile SAM systems aren’t going to be in the same spot all the time.

BS- they’ll know the location of the site that was bombed. The F-22 will be hundreds of miles away.

This is assuming it hit a stationary target like a building. Hundreds of miles away could be a hundred miles closer to another S-400, which will be happy to take out the retreating Raptor – as it’s designed with stealth detection in mind.

If you have the element of surprise, then how much hiding are the mobile SAMs doing? They need to know that they need to hide, before they can take that course of action.

What element of surprise lol!? Pearl Harbor is long gone. In the real world, few things are done by “surprise.” Or at least how you are thinking about it.

How do you design something superior if you don’t know the figures that you need to exceed, for that to be the case? Considering the Russians are behind us in stealth and AESA technology, I don’t expect them to surpass the capabilities on their first try.

Being the stealth-cheerleader that you are, I’m going to assume you mean they designed the F-22 to be stealthier than the B-2 for example.

They probably also made it to exceed the F-15 in all ways.

Now Sukhoi, with 1000 people working on the T-50, clearly know more than you about the F-22, or at least as much as you.

They HAVE a target RCS (.0001 or whatever non sense you post here – your total guesswork), and they are going to try and achieve it. The jet was delayed a year, which makes sense, probably because they are doing their best to meet and exceed expectations. Pogosyan himself said the PAK-FA will be the F-22s match in all areas, even when the Su-35BM is just as maneuverable as the F-22.

You can believe whatever you read from Star if you want,

As opposed to believe you and your US flag waving and stealth-awing posts?

Well most figures for the Raptor’s RCS are more like .0001 or smaller, and the likelihood of the T-50 having a better radar is slim. If the T-50 uses ECM, then the Raptor can DF it with the ALR-94, and launch a missile in home on jam mode. The other factors are big ifs too. There won’t be better weapons carriage unless the T-50 is larger than it’s supposed to be, nor will it likely carry more fuel.

The IRBIS seems to have a longer range than the APG-77.

An AESA upgraded IRBIS type is going to be better than the APG-77 at least in some aspects for sure.

There is also no guarantee that home-on-jam will be able to track the target, as ECM signals can vary from what I understand.

Lol, I think I have “Kremlin class” stuck in my head from the 80s. Too late to change, it’s on the pics too.

Re the FORT-M, I do make mention in the text. Do all the operational Kirov’s have it?

There are 4 vessels, 2 of which looks like they are going to get scrapped.

One carries the Fort-M now (Pyotr), and Nakhimov is in overhaul presumably also getting the system.

Pyotr/Nakhimov also have Kashtan, and TOR – with the OSA as you have in your pictures.

Once the SEAD/DEAD missions are complete, their RCS will be of less concern, as they won’t have a ground or air threat to deal with.

“Complete” – what do you think, they are going to know them out in a single sortie? 10? That’s non-sense. Maybe if you are dealing with 10 batteries. If it’s Russia you are talking about, you are going to face 23 divisions (granted not at the same time), with each division having 8-12 launchers.

Then, you have all the upgraded double digit middle and short range SAMs. SEAD will never be “complete,” since you can hide all of these systems under a bush (more like a woody area, but you get the idea 😉 ), so they can be brought to activity and MOVED as necessary, which will make countering them very very very difficult even for an F-22.

The ESM systems on the F35/22 will alert them where the S-400s are. Their low RCS will provide gaps in coverage, where they can operate. They will be able to fire stealthy weapons from outside the S-400’s detection range, which will in turn be detected with very little reaction time.

Oh really? So you expect EVERY S-400 system to be emitting always? They might as well activate one radar, and lure the F-22/F-35 and other legacy jets into a trap.

What if the F-22 bombs its target successfully, and 10 minutes later on its return trip gets blasted out of the sky because the people who were near the bombing point radioed nearby PVO and told them of the Raptor’s (or enemy plane’s) location? F-22 failed kind of? Yes I think so.

Perhaps, but isn’t that a terrible waste of an asset, if it is indeed designed with that capability?

It’s an all-in-1 system made for a major conflict. The kind of thing you might actually use to win a serious conflict.

And they’re also stealthy. I’m guessing TORs and Pantsyrs will be targets too.

Yeah, you gonna magically use some super-satellites-from-the-future to see through cover that the mobile SAM systems are using?

How many S-500 batteries are going to be deployed. Are they gonna be a tactical asset, or based around high value targets?

The S-500 is in development, so who knows. The S-400 numbers are given above.

PAK FA’s biggest requirement is to approach F-22 capabilities, yet be affordable.
You’re dreaming if you think it’s gonna exceed the Raptor, being the first stealth fighter Russia has ever built.

Approach? What crap is this?

First or 1000th stealth fighter makes no difference whatsoever, it was designed much later with much more advanced computer processing, stealth isn’t progressive science. It’s design. So stop this bullsh*t “1st gen” or “3rd gen” argument that’s been destroyed a dozen times here.

Even of the T-50 RCS is .003, and the Raptor is .001, it makes no difference at all in terms of final capability if the T-50 has a better radar, better ECM, better weapons carriage and better range. Raptor sees it 20KM before the PAK-FA sees it, but can’t burn through the T-50 ECM, for example.

How many air bases does the RuAF have forward deployed, with the ability to maintain, arm, refuel, operate tankers vs. the USAF?

If you are talking about a European, Middle Eastern, or Asian theater, I’d say “plenty” – as the landmass of Russia is massive and any military bases could be potentially used to forward-deploy Il-78s.

Also you might realize that most Russian aircraft have massive no-refueling ranges, so they are capable of flying long-range missions without the need of a tanker.

The MiG-29 is probably the only exception (because it’s a point defense fighter), with the Su-25 and Su-24 close behind.

Britain or anybody?

Clearly Britain.