echonineActually the range figures given are 36km at low level, 120km from 10,000m, and 160km from 15,000m. The U model’s max range was extended to 250km at high altitude(i.e. 50,000 feet or more which likely means a Mig-25/31 would be the aircraft used). The lower altitude ranges are still going to be considerably shorter.
Those figures are for the old version. If you consider the Kh-58Ux variants, it will be likely right around 200KM when launched from around 10KM high at slightly over mach 1.
Why can’t you assume that the max range is from the Mig-25? It has the kinematics that would allow for such a shot. 200km+ from 11km altitude is HIGHLY optimistic. Furthermore, which Air Force are you describing in your scenario(RuAF attacking Western Europe?) You’re also forgetting that while you might get the maximum ballistic range from that high altitude shot, the probability of mission success is going to be much lower, due the lack of the element of surprise. Your SEAD bird isn’t going to get that close undetected, flying at that altitude. In the event of a successful launch, a PAC-3 has a high likelihood of killing the inbound missile, seeing as how it has the speed and accuracy to take on faster moving TBMs.
Why can’t you assume that? A primary reason is the MiG-25 is no longer the aircraft weapons are designed for. the Kh-58UshKE isn’t going to be offered with MiG-25s now is it?
The SEAD bird may well get that close, as in a fair scenario it would be under its own AWACS and air cover.
echonineYes, it is. Read the data tables.
You are referring to the Kh-58E. Not the point here.
Then why did you post the link to it’s specifications?
For general info on the Kh-58 series. My original point never specified export missile.
When the data states that maximum range for the Kh-58E is “dependant on launch altitude at max speed”, and it gives the maximum launching speed as Mach 2.35, then the only way to get the maximum range figure is to fire it at high altitude and Mach 2.35. What other aircraft can carry and fire these weapons at Mach 2.35? Not the FENCER.
Again, this is Kh-58E. Figures only improve for the Kh-58Ux series. In all likelihood, still well out of danger from any Patriot.
No it isn’t, according to the information here: http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/511/516/
Again, Kh-58E. Assuming better performance for Kh-58Ux variant, the UshKE variant which can be exported.
echonineAnd you should read those websites a little closer. They give those ranges as being variable due to launch speed and altitude. Low altitude high speed launch range for the Kh-58E, for example: 46 km. Max range at low altitude for the developmental (i.e. not yet in service) Kh-58UShKE: 76 km. Plus, the Su-24M can’t even get anywhere near the Mach 2.35 required to get a high-altitude Kh-58E shot out to 200 km anyway.
SOC, you are pulling numbers out of nowhere. Nothing of this sort is said anywhere in those links.
The Kh-58UshKE is entering service, but that’s not relevant, due to the similar Kh-58U in Russian numerous Russian service.
The Kh-58E is not what I am talking about here.
You can’t assume that the max range is from the MiG-25BM.
Also, the 11Km ceiling on the Fencer is sufficient, with 1.3 mach speed for a 200KM + launch of the Kh-58U.
Also, any “air cover” the Patriot will have will be irrelevant for further discussion due to Flanker doctrine of covering the Fencer.
echonineComrade echonine you really should reword your statement to read “If China attempts to invades Taiwan, the US isn’t gonna do a thing.”
Although you are factually incorrect, the US would react violently to any attempt by the Chinese to invade Taiwan for geopolitical reasons. The fact remains that the Tiawan straight is 80-100 miles wide. The Chinese Navy has a very long way to go before they can assure the success of an invasion. The water is full of crocodiles.
They’ll be fine.
China > Taiwan – for anything. The US knows it.
Losing China as an economic partner isn’t gonna happen, nor is losing thousands of US servicemen.
echonineWhere are you digging up a 250km range for the Kh-58? At low altitude it doesn’t even have a 100km range, and at high altitudes I’ve seen figures from 120-200km. If the SU-24 is at high altitudes though, the Patriot will be the least of its worries, as it’ll be taken out by fighters. Secondly, a Patriot battery most likely isn’t going to be broadcasting its position, until it’s cued by other sources(other ground or air based early warning sensor information).
Don’t throw fighters and other garbage into this. You are just dodging the real issue. 😀
You seriously shock me with your horrible number knowledge regarding anything Russia.
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/511/516/ Kh-58E Export version200KM
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/511/540/ Kh-58UshKE 245KM
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Y8kePYFK1L8C&pg=PA149 Kh-58U 250KM
echonineChina may not be planning on invading mainland USA anytime soon but exactly how were we planning to come to the aid of Taiwan in the event China makes a grab for it? Were we going to do that without airpower? Once we start shooting down Chinese fighters then what? We can’t just say “well you can’t use too many of your fighters because we don’t want this to escelate- we don’t have enough F-22s for that”. Not trying to be a smartass but the reason a full scale airwar against Russia or China seems so far fetched is because we ARE prepared for something like that. Take it 20 years down the road when all the -teens are in museums and the situation is different. “It will never happen” are famous last words.
If China invades Taiwan, the US isn’t gonna do a thing.
echonineWhere are you all digging up at 250KM range for the Patriot?
The Su-24 pilots can cruise in at max altitude and launch at leisure if the Patriot is active.
echonineYou wouldn’t use a Super Hornet/HARM to target an S-300/400 site though.
To play Devil’s Advocate- the Super Hornet could at least get closer before being spotted, and with its towed decoys, and EA capabilities, it’d have a higher chance of survival.
This matters what when the Patriot can’t even hit the Su-24, but the Su-24 can hit it due to range of the Kh-58U/E.
echonineI’m not so certain, that it’s that simple.:rolleyes:
It would be so much simpler for a Super Hornet with the HARM against a Russian SAM though right right?
echonineRussian land-based SAM systems have no serious equals, IMO. Yes, AEGIS is the best sea-based system, but Patriot doesn’t hold a candle to the S-300PM, let alone the S-400. Mind you, the gap is narrowing. Medium-range systems like MEADS or even VL-MICA are just as effective as advanced Russian offerings like the 9M96 or Buk-M2, but nobody has really matched what the S-300PM offers, or the S-300V series for that matter.
All the Russians need to do to give Aegis a run for its money now is mount the S-400 system on their new destroyer class that will be built starting in 2012.
Russia could not wage a full-scale in Georgia.
Don’t kid yourself. Russia could have conventionally obliterated Georgia within 2 – 3 weeks or occupied it completely within about 4 – 6.
echonineAre you speaking in terms of the engagement envelopes, or in terms of the hit probability? I certainly wouldn’t want to be flying towards a target that had PAC-2/3s defending it.
Unless you were in a simple Su-24M with Kh-58 armament.
echonineHell at this point Bulava must be giving really headache to Russian MOD….Maybe the Severstal being towed must mean smth maybe a “testbed” modification for Sinevas?The original SS-N-20 was 16 m long and had a diameter of 2.4m….Sineva is long 15m and has a diameter of 1.9 m so probably they could refit it….any thoughts/possibility?
2 Typhoons could be armed with 40 missiles and would be added to the six modernised 667brdm D-IV
They don’t need a test bed for the Sinevas, as most of the upgraded Delta-4 subs are carrying them anyway.
echonineMOSCOW, July 18 (RIA Novosti) – Russia’s new Bulava submarine-launched ballistic missile will enter service with the Navy despite a series of failed test-launches, the first deputy chief of the Navy General Staff said on Saturday.
On July 15, a Bulava SLBM self-destructed after its first stage malfunctioned when it was fired from the submerged Dmitry Donskoi strategic nuclear-powered submarine in the White Sea.
“We are committed to this missile flying,” Vice Admiral Oleg Burtsev said in an interview on Ekho Moskvy radio station.
Six of the 11 test launches of the Bulava have ended in failure. The launches were temporarily suspended and the missile components were tested in the labs after a series of previous failures.
Burtsev said the cause of the latest failure was not a human error, but most likely a technical problem.
“The submarine crew painstakingly accomplished all set tasks,” he said.
The admiral added that the Bulava test launches from the Dmitry Donskoi will continue in the near future, and the missile will be later tested on the Yury Dolgoruky strategic submarine, the first of the new Borey class vessels.
The Russian military expects the Bulava, along with Topol-M land-based ballistic missiles, to become the core of Russia’s nuclear triad.
The Bulava (SS-NX-30) SLBM carries up to 10 MIRV warheads and has a range of over 8,000 kilometers (5,000 miles). The three-stage ballistic missile is designed for deployment on Borey-class nuclear-powered submarines.
Has to be the worst SLBM the USSR/Russia has ever made. I really wonder if they’ll get to the bottom of a root cause for the last problems. Someone is gonna get hung by their nutsack by the MoD!
echonine
It’s the Nevskiy!
Alexander Nevskiy!
Borei #2 coming along fast! 🙂
echonineDo the Fencers fly again?? I may be visiting Russia in August and like to see some of them flying … 😎 Any info available??
Yes, Fencer flights have resumed.
http://www.barentsobserver.com/russia-resumes-su-24-fencer-attack-aircraft-flights.4611263.html
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