echonineLoving the carrier masturbation here.
If China really wanted to match the USN, it would be wiser to do it with USSR / Russian style. Lots of fast and big missiles. Numbers are winner.
A carrier is good to move some air defense around your border – which makes sense for China – and bomb some undefended nations – which isn’t something China is going to be doing. As simplistic as that sounds it’s true.
echonineThey are different. The containers for the 5V55 and 48N6 missiles have been noted as different for a long time. The main difference is simply the number of braces running down the length of the canister. They are all the same size, the optical effect you’re noting is because the equipment housing on the S-400 TEL ahead of the missile canisters is smaller/narrower than that seen ahead of the canisters on the upper TEL. The upper TEL may be an S-300PM-1 or PM-2 TEL as well, not a PS (PMU is wrong, that’d be an export model of the PS). The reason being is that the TEL pictured has a different datalink fairing than seen on the PS TELs, and lacks either the Master or Slave component. That was tossed out when they revamped the MAZ-543 TEL for the PM variants.
As for the missiles, S-300P series systems are backwards compatible and can fire the older missiles. Also, the S-400 does use the 48N6DM, a 250km range 48N6 variant. The S-300PM uses the 48N6 series as well, just not the newest DM. So the missiles are different but do belong to the same basic family.
Is there some basic breakdown you can do of what S-300 variants are in service in Russia at the moment? And their number? With a listing of missiles too, and their respective system variant and range? Same thing for the S-400 (missile names / specs).
echonineChinese Carrier Goes Into Dry Dock
by James Dunnigan
May 14, 2009
China has moved its aircraft carrier, the Shi Lang, into dry dock, apparently to install engines and other heavy equipment. A year ago, the Russian aircraft carrier Varyag was renamed the Shi Lang (after the Chinese general who took possession of Taiwan in 1681, the first time China ever paid any attention to the island) and given the pennant number 83. The Chinese have been refurbishing the Varyag, one of the Kuznetsov class that Russia began building in the 1980s, for five years now. It is expected to be ready for sea trials by the end of the year. Maybe. No one is sure exactly what plans the Chinese have for the Shi Lang, although work has been going on for years, and it’s believed that the carrier will eventually be used to train the first generation of Chinese carrier aviators and sailors.
The Varyag has been tied up in a Chinese shipyard at Dailan since 2002. While the ship is under guard, it can be seen from a nearby highway. From that vantage point, local military and naval buffs have noted that some kind of work is being done on the ship. The only visible signs of this work are a new paint job (in the gray shade used by the Chinese navy) and ongoing work on the superstructure (particularly the tall island on the flight deck.) Many workers can be seen on the ship, and material is seen going into (new stuff) and out of (old stuff) the ship. Shipyard workers report ever tighter security on the carriers, and stern instructions to workers to not report details of what is happening on the carriers.
Originally the Kuznetsovs were to be 90,000 ton, nuclear powered ships, similar to American carriers (complete with steam catapults). Instead, because of the high cost, and the complexity of modern (American style) carriers, the Russians were forced to scale back their plans, and ended up with the 65,000 ton (full load ) ships that lacked steam catapults, and used a ski jump type flight deck instead. Nuclear power was dropped, but the Kuznetsov class was still a formidable design. The thousand foot long carrier normally carries a dozen navalized Su-27s (called Su-33s), 14 Ka-27PL anti-submarine helicopters, two electronic warfare helicopters and two search and rescue helicopters. But the ship can carry up to 36 Su-33s and sixteen helicopters. The ship carries 2,500 tons of aviation fuel, allowing it to generate 500-1,000 aircraft and helicopter sorties. Crew size is 2,500 (or 3,000 with a full aircraft load.) Only two ships of this class exist; the original Kuznetsov, which is in Russian service, and the Varyag. Currently, the Kuznetsov is operating in the Mediterranean.
The Chinese have been in touch with Russian naval construction firms, and may have purchased plans and technology for equipment installed in the Kuznetsov. Some Chinese leaders have quipped about having a carrier by 2010 (this would have to be a refurbished Varyag). Even that would be an ambitious schedule, and the Chinese have been burned before when they tried to build new military technology in a hurry.
Late last year, China announced that its first class of carrier aviators had begun training at the Dalian Naval Academy. The naval officers will undergo a four year course of instruction to turn them into fighter pilots capable of operating off a carrier. China already has an airfield, in the shape of a carrier deck, built at an inland facility. The Russians have warned China that it may take them a decade or more to develop the knowledge and skills needed to efficiently run an aircraft carrier. The Chinese are game, and are slogging forward.
Here’s the article that should go well with those new dry dock pics 🙂
echonine-Neither of those missiles are currently in service.
-Both of those missiles are huge, limiting their practical usefulness against fighters(if there are large numbers of targets)
-The NEZ of these missiles is nowhere near 400km, especially against a maneuvering fighter.
-The ranges given for these missiles are against large non-maneuvering targets, with large radar thingys on top, that are emitting(and unaware of threat aircraft/missiles)
In service is a question of someone ordering them. The R-33S is already 200+ KM range, which is very high.
They are huge, but that does not matter. They have massive warheads and high kinetic performence. They have been rated for 12G targets.
The NEZ might not be 400KM, but it’s a hell of a lot higher than medium range AAMs.
The ranges, again, are still higher than medium range AAMs, which is what counts.
echonineI believe MiG-31 will pose a serious threat vs a/c not equipped with MAWS.
During Iraq/Iran war, just the signature of F-14’s AWG-9 radar was enough to make Iraqie pilots panic and flee in fear of phoenix, in most BVR engagements, the downed pilots never knew it coming.
OTOH, Any 4.5 gen will pose a serious threat to such obsolete and ill-equipped fighters.
MiG-31 is not an air superiority fighter, but it’s a deadly interceptor vs not-so-agile a/c, and perhaps the day come, when long range missiles can out-maneuver even modern fighters.
What fighters can do 12Gs? None.
Also, even an R-33S fired at ANYTHING flying will cause a likely mission kill, which is perfectly acceptable.
echonineThen i hope in the Victor 3 isn’t around any more either, i just love Oscar.
The last four Victor-3 subs are extremely advanced for the series, with capabilities of the Akula I basically. Produced in the early 90s!
Oscar II is arguably my favorite sub also 🙂
echonineWas Murmansk really scrapped at Zvezdochka? Maybe he is still sitting in the yard and that’s the Oscar 1 they are talking about? Not everything they say they will scrap is actually scrapped, we saw that with Tuman the third Neustrashimy hull that magically reappeared and the same is true of the Kirov hulls that were supposed to be scrapped but are still around rusting.
I was referring to the “official intended news” about Murmansk 🙁
Any chance we can do some Google Earth on this?
echonineLOL, not exactly, since it’s basic RF science, which can be studied in most colleges on the planet.
However, there’s one argument that has been so far pointed out. VHF and such radars doesn’t have precision to guide missile until impact point since we’re talking about 2 meters wavelength. However, today’s stealth is a story 30/40 years old and in time it was conceived, AMRAAM was about to enter the testing phase and active RH was somewhat a sci-fi.
Today, I don’t see a reason which would prevent a SAM battery to be equipped with active RH (IR) missiles (radio mid-course updated) and guided by VHF radar, which would brought the missiles in the target’s vicinity (VHF is precise enough) and from that point on missile’s own onboard radar (IR) should be enough to “burn through” target’s stealth.
I’m not mentioning any numbers intentionally, because I don’t want to speculate.Cheers, Cola
IR long range missiles would be ideal, but there is nothing of the sort in the works unfortunately. I wonder if a dual guidance seeker for the R-37 and KS-172 could be created.
echoninethe article specifies 3 classes they will be upgraded in 2010 and beyond Antei (Oscar 2), Granit (Oscar 1) and Bars (Akula) class submarines.
Oscar I subs aren’t around anymore.
Sierra II class subs should be up for the upgrade though.
Can’t say about the Sierra I though.
echonineSo is the R-33s agility poor? Its a shame they dropped the R-37 (did work restart in 2006?) as that sounded as if it would have been significantly better.
The KS-172 and R-37 have been rated for upto 12G targets. You should be able to figure out what that means.
The MiG-31 can receive targetting coordinates from long-wave radar stations capable of tracking stealth aircraft, so firing a long range missile is also a possibility against LO and VLO targets. Against 4.5 gen fighters even the MiG-31B is excellent, while the MiG-31BM will have a huge sensor advantage over basically all 4.5 gen types, and still have potential against stealthy targets.
Now, what you are going to hear from now on will be a lot of pro 5th-gen aircraft wet dream talk from the best collection of 5th gen aircraft fan boys on the internet and how the MiG-31 is useless, how great the F-35 and F-22 are, etc. You have been warned.
I suggest you post this up on http://www.militaryphotos.net for a slightly more unbiased discussion.
echonineYou probably mispelled that last one. Fencers are not produced since 1984 or so. Su-34, on the other hand, is not a KnAAPO product and its production line is not being boosted, the original production plan is not being modified.
Again, for the n-th time: Putin talked about Sukhoi, and Sukhoi only. NO SUKHOI GROUP FACTORY DOES PRODUCE ANY MiGs.
You are majorly misreading my post.
24 “MiG-35s” – and no, this wasn’t about Putin, it was about the RuAF ordering them according to the MiG Bureau director! I posted the relevant source.
——–
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs…d-deef0e20dba3
Maxim Pyadushkin writes: The Russian Air Force has decided to order a batch of MiG-35 fighters, according to MiG design bureau director Vladimir Barkovsky, and the order has already been included in the procurement program for the next three years. The move will secure the future of the MiG-35, a highly modified version of the MiG-29 that is Russia’s candidate for India’s MMRCA contest.
This news is certainly good for MiG Corporation, which is trying to recover from a difficult financial situation. The Russian government has already allocated 15 billion rubles to increase the company’s charter capital and to help cover its 44.8 billion ruble debt (about $1.2 billion). On February 11, prime minister Vladimir Putin announced a new 17.3 billion ruble order for MiG. This apparently includes the purchase by the Russian Air Force of the MiG-29SMT fighters rejected by Algeria in 2007-2008.
The purchase of MiG-35s will be a serious boost for the fighter’s prospects in India, but Russian government officials are still worried that these plans might be postponed due to budget cuts resulting from the economic crisis. According to unofficial information, some Russian defense manufacturers are already facing 15-30% cuts in domestic procurement programs approved earlier.
If you choose to clown around and disregard anything a Russian says, be my guest . . .
echonineSo, 60 Su-35, or 60 MiG-35 or a mix? :confused:
My bet is 36 Su-35 plus 24 MiG-35.
60+ Su-35s and 24 or so MiG-35s from what I gather . . .
echonineTracking of the boat, even at routine steaming, from the ranges discussed is still a significant commentry on USN capabilities.
I call total BS on this. It might even be in the Russians’ evil intent to falsify how ‘easy’ it is to track the boats.
echonineAbsurd statement. How can you have an official comment on something that no-one of any senior rank would be allowed to comment on?!.
As for the ‘losing side’ confirmation thing precisely how would they know they were being tracked to provide such confirmation – unless they admit they were counter-tracking?. Now go back to square one and the mantra not to reveal ones own capabilities!.
Also see that I wrote the USN slipped-up when they released the fact that they were tracking the Kursk from several hundred km’s off before she sank. Whether you agree about the factual nature of the information or not that was the information released.
Okay, let me rephrase. The stories are meaningless facts (or rather, merely, statements of specific cases).
The USN “slipped up” – okay right, who cares? Was the Kursk staying silent on purpose? No. I’d bet not. What I’m suggesting is the “other side” hasn’t said what they were doing during the incident. So, who cares? This says nothing of the USN capability to track an Oscar-II that was TRYING TO STAY HIDDEN. The Kursk might have been simply testing out weapons.
echonineFew credible facts, regarding current generation boats, have entered the public domain that I am aware of. One was a slip by the USN that indicated they could track Oscar class SSGN’s from a suprisingly long range which came to light during the Kursk tragedy. Plus a comment which came from a USN operator about 8 or 9 years back on warships1 that indicated that, under certain circumstances, Akula-1’s discretion rate was no real improvement over Vic-III. It being pointed out that Vic-III wasnt a bad boat by any stretch. Thats about it for genuine and, IMO credible, publically available material.
The stories are hardly facts either. Are there specific numbers? Does the “losing” side of the statement confirm the facts? Do side X know what side Y was even doing during situation Z? You know what I mean?
It will be interesting to see if any official statements on the Yasen are received, which is meant to be a direct Seawolf competitor.
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