StevoJHSounds like fun and games. remember that India hasn’t paid anything since early last year though.
StevoJHExactly, hence the extreme difficulty in categorising and comparing.;)
I was trying to categories them based on designed roles, which, as seen by this little debate we are having, is not exactly easy. 😉
We have CVS/Sea Control, ASW, Amphibious. However some of these designs can do more then one of these, or do them with different levels of capability.
StevoJHPrecisely my point.;)
I maintain however that the Invincible class have morphed into attack carriers and now has little resemblence to the ASW ships originally concieved.
As a very very rough comparison I would put LHA-6 in the same category as HMS Ocean, despite the obvious size difference! Neither has a dock but both are intended to operateheavy helos. You could roughly compare the CAS role of Aapches on Ocean to that of F-35’s on the LHA-6 and of Chinooks to the MV-22. Very rough however.
I wonder how much the inclusion of well deck on the San Antonio class allowed the removal od one from the LHA-6?
The problem being that once again even though the ships look the same, Ocean only operates rotary winged aircraft while LHA-6 will operate both fixed and rotary winged assets
StevoJHNo, to start with just becuase Invincible and Ocean share the same basic hull design it does not make them the same type of vessel, they are intended to do very differen things.
And why would you put a Dokdo in the same category as an Invincible? The latter is an attack carrier with a secondary (at best) amphbious capability whilst the former is a near dedicated amphibious ship. The Hyuga on the other hand is a an ASW helciopter cruiser, all very different vessels.
Just becuase it has a large flat deck it does not make it the same as another ship with a large flat deck.
I put Hyuga and Invincible together as they were both designed primarily as ASW carriers, primarily with helicopters (Hyuga completely).
Invincible was not with Dokdo, you may have been referring to Cavour which i wasn’t sure about placing as it is supposed to act as either a carrier or LPH.
I was under the impression that Ocean was an invincible with a slightly different superstructure and with the Internal Passageway’s widened and built to commercial standards
StevoJHIf you wanted to categorise those ships into their designed roles, then Invincible and Ocean would go with the Hyuga class. Wasp, Juan Carlos 1, Tarawa, Mistral, Cavour and Dokdo go together. PdA, GG and Viraat would go together.
Invincible and Hyuga were both designed as ASW carriers, Ocean is basicly an Invincible with Diesel engines and some modifications to the Internal passageways so it still fits into the same category. The second lot are all LHD’s except for Cavour which is a hybrid LPH/STOVL carrier. The final ships were all designed and built as dedicated aircraft carriers, GG and PdA were built to the US Sea Control carrier concept, which basicly makes them a more fixed wing orientated variant of the Invincible class concept, while Viraat/Hermes was originally designed with an Axial deck similar to all the other examples, though it was modified to an angled deck while under construction, she is the closest example to a “modern” CTOL aircraft carrier out of all of these, simply because she used to be one.
The conversion of the ex-Foch into a STOVL carrier with ex-USMC Harriers would be an interesting concept, as would its conversion into a STOBAR carrier with Mig-29K. With the age of its current airwing, they wont have much choice if they want to keep the carrier running much into the future (you can only upgrade 1950’s and 1960’s airframes so much).
StevoJHFolks,
The French have about the most practical and cost effective warship for situations like off the coast of Somalia. It is the FLOREAL class “sentry” frigates. At the link below check the cruise range and crew size. Also these frigates are built to commercial hull standards and are far cheaper to operate and have far more comfortable provision for the crew than other warships in its class. To be blunt is stupid to have some of the super expensive naval warships off of Somalia that are designed to fight submarines, other modern warships and aircraft to combat ragtag pirates in speed boats!
Jack E. Hammond
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flor%C3%A9al_class_frigate
.
Colonial Gunboats, basically oversized OPV’s. Hopefully something similar to those, however minus the SSM’s will be procured by the RN for their C3 requirement.
If you added a RAM CIWS to them above the Hanger they’d be as well armed as an LCS as well. :diablo:
The most expensive part of that ship in terms of running costs and maintenance costs would probably be the helicopter.
StevoJHSouth Korea does indeed present a very attractive option as does Italy with knowing how to do it, but if a contract went out, I wonder if South Korea would be the cheapest (something the Indians take highly in negotiations). I’m thinking that we might actually see a surprise like Indonesia offering to build the ship.
Indonesia have recently built four large LPD’s of their own and they have come into service with very few problems considering this is the first time they have built ships of this size.
I fully acknowledge South Korea and their efforts done with Dokdo, but again I stress my point, India doesn’t want to spend money but does want all the big toys!
As for Russia’s arm twisting, I can see that the delays are going to come to a head soon and India will either pull out and sue for compensation (good luck getting money out of them, they don’t have any) or take the ship as is and finish it off themselves (similar to what China has done with their carrier). It is rather interesting to see how the political field is being played here between the two countries, yet I can’t understand why India keeps going back for more (why does a woman stay with her husband if he beats her)?
Another thought just hit me, with the current economic problems, would the US jump in and and crack the Indian market with offering to build these vessels in the US or even have a US company set up in India and build them there, also throw in a but of funding under FMS in order to get the Indians to can the Gorshkov deal and buy US equipment? We know the US is keen as mustard to get a foot hold in India, who knows, perhaps some old USMC Harriers could find their way to the IN ranks as well!
The first two of the Indonesian “LPD’s” (which are built to very basic standards) were built in South Korea with Indonesia building the last two with South Korean Assistance. Indonesia is in no state to build Aircraft carriers for themselves or anyone else.
India would be better off building the carrier themselves then paying an indonesian yard which would need a lot of expansion work done to it. The Makassar class LPD’s are a quarter the displacement of India’s future aircraft carrier, half the length and they were built to commercial standards. Hardly comparable.
Edit 1: The options are basicly. South Korea, Japan, China, Italy, UK (if the yards werent building QE), Germany(?), France, US(i think all their yards are tied up) or India itself.
Edit 2: Spain would be an option but i think they might be tied up building Assault ships for the RAN and replenishment ships at the moment.
StevoJHn 2010, HMS Invincible will have spent less time in commission then either of them
I think you might be right. However she hasn’t had the same refits and upgrades that her sister ships have. Janes claims that she could be regenerated and put back into the front line in 12-18 months, although I suspect the real problem would be finding a crew. Generating the RNSFDO Sea Harriers, finding pilots, and even getting them back up to speed would be less of a challenge. Never say never…
Here are some more pretty pictures.
PS No more talk of integrating a weapon (or sensor) onto an aircraft (or ship, or anything else) as being simple (sic), please.
She is only one refit behind Illustrious and Ark Royal. She was given a major refit in 2002/2003 IIRC.
StevoJHPick a navy and define a role and this will become much easier but at the moment is is remarkably unclear what it is that you are asking for.
And pick a budget. 😉
StevoJHExcellent post.
I would make one addition, I suspect that the massive reduction is surface and air threat since the end of the Cold War has contributed to the move away from the installation heavy AAW+ASuW capability on the new ships. I the SU still existed and its armed forces had progressed as they planned these ships would have a much stronger missile compliment.
I remember reading about Japan purchasing an MCM variant of the Merlin Helicopters, don’t remember where. These ships would also make excellent MCM command ships along the lines of how one of the Iwo Jima class LPH’s was used.
StevoJHThe problem with comparing the Typhoon to the Rafale is that you are comparing an aircraft with over 700 orders, with ~150 aircraft delivered to an aircraft with a possible order of 294 (but only ~120 contracted so far) and ~60 delivered.
Its also comparing an aircraft that will be in service with at least 7 countries to an aircraft that as of yet has only been ordered for one airforce. The Typhoon is therefore most likely to receive the most comprehensive upgrades as the costs would be funded across multiple countries and over a much larger number of airframes.
If it was my choice, i’d probably take the Typhoon over the Rafale simply for that reason alone.
StevoJHThat was precisely my point, but I thank you for repeating it.
The more clarification the better.
StevoJHwell actually i meant the lesson they had learnt of the coast of iran, and equipped ahead with THIS mission in mind. Seizing small boats with heavily armed militia on board? a topic of discussion? protection of sailors?
i don’t post in this section much, probably a good thing, seems to be a few rear admirals here…
What boats would you suggest be used instead? Military RHIB’s are designed for this kind of thing, and they are the only realistic craft with the required speed, personnel carrying capacity and sea keeping ability.
Anything that would give more protection such as a Landing Craft (the only viable option) would probably be to big to fit the davits of an FFG, does not have the sea keeping of a RHIB (they are supposed to look after life rafts in the case of the ship sinking) and with a max speed of ~10 knots rather then the 40 or so of a RHIB are much to slow. I’d rather be in a 40 knot RHIB if i was facing an enemy who possibly had RPG’s then being in a 10 knot LCU.
StevoJHWhy would they need to buy such a design? If they can come up with vessels like Kiev class and Kuznetsov, like Ivan Rogov and Moskva classes, you would think they can cook up an LHA of their own.
They were all 30 or 40 years ago now though. The people that did the design work on them would be long retired, many of them would have long since died.
StevoJHTritium is marginally radioactive no major damage can be caused by that amount either unless exposed to it for prolonged periods and it would dissapate before that time. too much media hype here.
Yup, would be reduced to unmeasurable concentrations within hours, days max. And there would be no long term effects as it has a half-life of only ~12 years. Oh, and if it was badly radioactive it wouldn’t be used on gun sights.
Sign In
