StevoJHTwo things 😛
What is an Illustrious class Aircraft Carrier? 😀
And the CVF wont have a fixed airwing, with the Aircraft Deployed aboard depending on the mission. Hopefully it gets its full 36 F-35’s plus other aircraft for normal operations, with a possibility for extra’s during wartime.
Really good analysis as far as i can tell from my uninformed position.
StevoJHEven if IN build something as big CVF, the navy has same issue as Royal navy they are not procuring enough aircraft for them. With attrition rate of SHars (13 Mk. 51s left?) and only 16 Mig-29k (4 trainers) that’s not enough for Vikramaditya and Viraat. Hopefully order for another 30 Mig-29k are placed soon or N-LCA comes through.
Forget Viraat, that thing is on its last legs and i’m going to assume that it will be retired as soon as either the IAC of Vikramaditya enter service, whichever is first. Their SHARS probably wont be too far behind.
StevoJHIt was, unfortunately, a ‘ship too far’; I say this not because it wasn’t needed, but because it was designed too late, and was too big a political target. If the CVA-01 had been designed five to ten years earlier, it might have worked. By the mid ’60s, too much had been spent on the rebuilds of the older carriers (Victorious, Ark and Eagle all having gone through very expensive rebuilds in the preceding few years) to allow funds for new carriers. Equally, by being pushed at a time when the Royal Navy had lost it’s most ardent supporter, Lord Mountbatten, yet facing staunch opposition from the RAF (who ‘needed’ the TSR-2 funded) it was a no-hoper.
Forget the rebuilds, when the CVA-01 was designed, Eagle and Ark were still fairly young, Eagle turned 14 in 1965 and Ark Royal Turned 10 in the same year. The four light fleet carriers were only new still as well, with centaur 12, bulwark and Albion 9 and Hermes only 6 years old.
At the time the CVA was designed, the RN had 6 Relatively modern Aircraft carriers still in service, along with the modernised HMS Victorious. HMS Magnificent was in reserve, HMS Victorious was in service, and HMS Triumph was still in service as a heavy repair ship (what is that exactly?).
Thats 7 carriers in service, 1 in reserve and one that could be recovered in an emergency (Triumph).
StevoJHThis is what happens now, and there are happy moments like this year when both carriers have been active – but only one is operating fixed wing (Lusty). Expect next year when Ocean returns for Ark to take over the strike role at some point, and Lusty to take a little rest. And with the Harrier detachment to Afghanistan coming to an end for at least three years, perhaps we might just see Harriers at sea in reasonable numbers. I think I am right in saying that JFH has not manage to put more than 6 Harriers on a deck since the SHar was retired. I’ve got high hopes for Operation Taurus 09 in the Med early next year!
I distinctly remember photos from the last few days of both Ark and Illustrious at Sea for exercises around the UK, both carriers were present and one of them (not sure which) definitely had a load of harriers aboard.
StevoJHCan’t see any real chance of RN ever having 30 odd escorts again unless something really serious kicks off.
True, but the recommissioning of Invincible is slightly more likely assuming they had the money and manpower. And IMO, having the money is more likely then having the manpower at the moment, considering they had to place three ships in extended readiness to find enough sailors to drive trucks around afghanistan.
StevoJHLet’s not compare the CVF’s with the Ex-Russian Carrier…………:(
Ah, but CVF wont have the problem with the sortie rate and lifts, and the lack of aircraft isnt a ship design problem, but rather the fact that not enough aircraft are being purchased.
StevoJHHonestly, the extent on any future expansion of the RN would probably be the Acquiring of the final 6 cancelled T45’s, the ordering of 20 C1’s &/or C2’s to bring the escort numbers back up to the 32 in the SDR as well as the recommissioning of Invincible in the CVS Role with Ark Royal as a Dedicated LPH.
Would give:
2 CVS
2 LPH
12 T45
20 C1 & C2
2-4 LPD + LSD’s
20-30 Large OPV’s/Sloops replacing the MCM and OPV(H) fleets. In an ideal world additional ones would be purchased to replace the Archer’s and Scimitar’s at Gibraltar, Cyprus and in the RNR.
RFA expanded to support two simultaneous task groups of whatever the optimal size is considered, plus the normal operations around the world.
Invincible and Illustrious would be replaced by the two CVF’s, Ark Royal and Ocean by a pair of purpose built LPH’s.
StevoJHhttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=144547 another nice international exercise with a decent load of harriers.
in recent memory id disagree they both been busy the exception was when eathir was in refit and an another has just returned from ops they been busy
The markings on the funnels are different on the carrier shots, that is both Ark and Illustrious. 😮
StevoJHWhat the russians need to do is build two basic classes of ship, one of about 4000t as the ones currently under construction are, and one roughly the same size as the T45 and equiped with the S400 SAM system.
Vessels of these two classes to replace all other ship classes in service, except possibly either the Kirovs or Slava’s until something is procured to take over their flagship duties.
StevoJHFYI ticon’s mK. 22 could keep up with Mk 41 in ROF the main disadvantage of those launchers where there is failure in rotarary mechanism or failed launch the system is rendered useless, VLS does not have that issue.
Plus you can launch Tomahawk from the Mk.41’s.
StevoJHThey were through deck cruisers, the nomenclature had as much (if not more) to do with their design lineage than any desire to hide their true capability.
Yes, they had cruiser hulls, the Air defense capabilities of a destroyer and a through deck to carry helicopters for ASW Ops, you could probably point them out to be a more role optimized successor to the Tigers and to the Centaur class CVL’s which were overkill in the ASW role.
StevoJHSo, if the CVF’s are going to field two Squadrons of F-35B’s. I would assume that one would be RN and the other RAF? I wonder which service would provide the three squadron in case of a surge???:confused:
Does it matter? 😛
StevoJHStevoJH
I can see the RAF operating seven sqn´s worth of Typhoon´s, plus an OCU, three sqn´s of JSF, plus an OCU, the Tornado fleet being “flogged to death” and being replaced around 2025/2030 by something like 100 units of “Son-of-Taranis”.
And if someone asks for the “FAA fast jet fleet”?
What FAA fast jet fleet?! 🙁
Contracts have been signed for the CVF, they don’t really have much choice in purchasing them now. And the government would look extremely stupid if there werent any fighters for them. Because of that, they really don’t have much choice in the matter.
StevoJH“Sintra auto head banging in the wall” 😮
Its not really a major problem IMO, they need the aircraft one way or another, anyway.
150-88=62
If it gets real bad, reduce the order of F35’s to between 80 and 100 and make them get rid of the “Joint” designation, make them completely RN owned.
The RAF received 170 of the ADV variant of the Tornado and 165 Jaguars for a total of 18 or 19 squadrons, many of which were withdrawn from service after the Cold War. Add on that several of the Harrier GR squadrons have converted to the Typhoon and we are talking 350+ aircraft replaced by 232. The RAF will need every Typhoon it can get its hands on just to replace the remaining Tornado F3 Squadrons.
The RAF is also operating 84 Tornado GR.4’s operationally in 7 squadrons with a further 26 in the OCU. This is a further 110 Aircraft that will either have to be replaced by F35’s or another aircraft in the next 10-20 years.
StevoJHTo resurrect this….
How about this as a possible alternate route of the RN if it had been chosen in the 1990’s?
Invincible going through a similar conversion to that which Ark has gone through, giving it more of an LPH focus and giving the RN its two LPH’s, while retaining Ark and Illustrious in Service as CVS.
Ocean being constructed with command facilities similar to those on the Albions, with Invincible and Ocean playing the role of Amphibious command ships, which given their LPH role would make sense as they would realistically be further offshore during an assault.
Rather then building the Albion class, 7-8 LSD’s are built instead of the 4 built, with 3-4 being in RN service and the remaining 4 in RFA service.
2000’s.
Decommission and sell off the T22B1 & 2’s but keep the B3’s. Keep the T23’s that were historically sold off in service, with their running costs paid for by placing T42 B1’s and some B2’s in reduced readiness, with them maintained by core crews, with the rest of the “crew” made up from reservists, that come aboard for at sea training once or twice a year as a whole crew, and several times more as partial crews.
Would mean in service:
2x CVS
1x CVS/LPH
1x LPH
8x LSD
4x T22B3
16xT23
4-6x T42
6-8x T42 in extended readiness with the crews being made up from reservists for exercises once or twice each year.
late 2000’s, early 2010’s
8x T45’s replacing the T42B3 and T22B3, with those ships replacing the earlier T42’s in extended readiness.
CVF under construction in service 2012 and 2014, with Invincible and Ocean replaced 2016 and 2018.
T23’s replaced by 16 C1’s with one entering service every year starting from 2017 with these ships rotating through extended readiness replacing T42B3’s and T22B3’s with the last 8 of these ships to be decommissioned remaining in reserve until the T45 is replaced.
Any idea why HMS Birmingham was decommissioned 6 years before any of the other T42’s?
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