Scorpion :

You talk about it as if you have seen the HuD video or something else

I only quoted what the French pilots said .
Unfortunatly , the SARPA never released any video of the encounter but we have some nice OSF shots . These shots are of interest since they show a couple of interestings details .

-1) The USAF used the luneberg lens (visible under the belly) to hide the real RCS of the F-22 .
-2) the OSF TV imaging quality is astonishing .
-3) there are 6 different zoom settings
-4) the LRF is very precise : on the first picture , the F-22 is 576m away , 2100m away on the 2nd picture (and the TV zoom set to “4”) and 644m away on the 3rd picture .

There is also this HUD picture :

Looks like a score to me …
(Pictures from : http://optronique.net/defense/systeme/osf-rafale-dassault-f22-raptor-lockheedmartin )

More later …

Cheers .

Jackonicko :

If very low speed agility and post stall capability was more significant than being a niche capability, the MiG-29 and Su-27 would rule the roost in air combat.
They don’t.

Says who ? The West NEVER fought top Fulcrums and top Sukhois . The German Fulcrums had quite a reputation , if I may say .

no fighter pilot worth his salt will deliberately throw away energy by getting that slow.

You don ‘t understand . The game is to force the opponent to get that slow and there are techniques to archive it . The dogfight is always dictated by the best dogfighter . As an example , the F-16 will try to force its opponent in the slow horizontal fight where the M2000 will try to force its opponent in the vertical plane (Yo-Yo , Himmelman , etc) .
If the other doesn ‘t want to go there , he ‘ll eventually have to break the fight which is highly dangerous because you usually show your a$$ at one moment .

In any event, a helmet sight and HOBS missile will obviate the need to get that slow.

Hopefully yes but when the opponent can set up himself in your 6 after the first turn , you can ‘t fire at it when it ‘s 0.5 km behind you . You would simply loose a perfectly good missile .
Also , some people are not really aware how busy the pilot ‘s neck is during dogfight ! 😮
Just check that :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZfm2dtyyPI

All sparks will burn out in the end …

Cheers .

When the USAF agreed to do mock dogfights with the F-22 against the Rafale , I first said “Fine , the F-22 is gonna get a hell of a time :diablo:” . I even predicted that Rafale could win by a small margin .
I underestimated how fast the F-22 can regain energy when forced to go low and slow .

The F-22 managed to beat the Rafale (not by much but still) at the expense of an enormous fuel consumption , after-burner ON at all time even during thrust vectoring manoeuvers . The F-22 even called “bingo fuel” in one occasion .
It was new and unplanned for the USAF who never had such difficulties when dogfighting against other US aircraft where the F-22 always prevailed with ease .
What I would like to see is the Rafale doing mock dogfights against late SU fighters . That would be interesting 🙂

Cheers .

The last 3 pages , I didn ‘t learn anything . Nothing , nada , zero 😡

This Rafale thread has become (again) a pi$$ing contest mostly based on BS and nitpicking details , from both sides .
It has to stop , I mean it . 😡

Set-up a new Typhoon vs Rafale thread but stop polluting this one , thank you .

Now , regarding the Mica (since it is Rafale ‘s main missile , so it ‘s on topic) , the IR version has some tricks up its sleeve when compare to other IR missiles .
The range advantage being only one of them . Its autonomous and clever cooling system is not subjected to time restritions and is working at all time making it a very useful short range IRST/FLIR . This in itself is giving the pilot(s) an earlier LOBL than any other IR missiles as well as participating at the overall situational awareness during the whole mission .
Wrt the range acquisition , it is classified but we can expect around 20km and if the opposite fighter is showing his a$$ (tail chase) the Mica will hit when Asraam /Iris-t/R-77 will not by lack of range/energy .
I hope that you all see the edge .

BVR combat starts head on most of the time (as long as both sides are well aware of each other) but right after that , both sides HAVE to manoeuver to evade the missile barrage and/or to get in a better position for WVR engagement . In between , there is a 1-2 minutes lap of time where the IR Mica is shining : it can hit at 40km+ with a good NEZ and it is passive .
I hope that you all see the edge .

Remind me , when was the last time a BVR EM missile killed a real enemy at 50km ? Years ago …
Even the “mighty” Amraam did fare rather poorly beyond 30km . At that range (30km) , the Mica will hit the target before the Amraam because of its better acceleration which is , AFAIK , unmatched . From the rail to 20km , the bloody thing is a dragster and leave in the dust many other AtoA missiles .
It has chord wings to extend the range to 60km+ .
Because it has thrust vectoring , some people think it is mostly a WVR missile but in fact , it is like the Rafale : it is an “omnirole” missile .
A real winning combo and you can even switch the EM head for an IR head in minutes : it ‘s the same missile with the same interface . 😎
I hope that you all see the edge .

Also , one should never forget the “fear factor” a pilot is up to when facing an enemy capable to fire passively a passive missile at 30km+ , which is a BVR situation . The enemy also knows that the same missile can be fired (actively) from longer range , just increasing the “fear factor” , knowing that the end game can ‘t be jammed with ECMs .
A medium range IR missile (also capable of real good dogfighting) is a threat not to be taken lightly . The end game is just too dangerous to mess around with , even at short BVR range (30km+) or medium BVR range (40km) .

To make it short , the Mica is a powerful weapon from 500m to 60km+ and the others know it .

Cheers .

Scorpion :

In the eyes of an utterly delusional and biased die hard fanboy like you yes.

Don ‘t make me laugh Scorpion , you perfectly know that the Rafale is a better aircraft than the Typhoon overall and there is no need to go personal .
While I have a great respect for you and for what you post on various forums , you must control your temper a bit and look at the big picture when you read me . 😎
Saying that I am “utterly delusional” is wrong and remember that I have been 7 years in the Air Force and I know what is good and what is not when it comes to hit the enemy while preserving your own life and material .

Cheers .

Shiv :

in the end the things that matter most are areas like weapons delivery, because that’s what you send your jet to do – deliver weapons.

Exactly ! Bangs for Bucks is what matter and the Rafale does a lot more (than the Typhoon) for a bit less money .

“Deal ! Where do I sign ?”

The Typhoon is a ground based M2000 on steroîds with good multirole capabilities (like the M2000) while the Rafale is a carrier capable omnirole fighter . If we forget for a moment the avionics and look at other features , like aerodynamics , anti-corrosion/salt materials , airframe robustness , low speed handling , fuel management , range , weapon load , available armory , the Rafale is ahead . What counts is to hit the enemy hard and to come back alive .
If you can get that for a decent amount of money , you sign the deal .

Cheers .

Ok , we have to agree to disagree .

Cheers .