Theres always going to be ways to counter Stealth with various systems, some being the most simple in many cases. But “shaped” aircraft are always going to play a major part for many aeroplane makers.

Edit: Pretty much agree, Dave. But as I say, “shaped” aircraft are always going to be a major part in design.

Yes EE but do you know the reason why ?
… :rolleyes:
Because the EM missiles seekers are still in charge for the kill

Those seekers are not capable to lock on a true stealth target at more than 5nm (for the best EM seekers) .
CQFD : long live the IR BVR missiles .

Cheers .

Death Star, BW. 😉

But, quite a claim about Stealth and shaping. Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, Sukhoi, Chengdu, BAE Systems etc and your very own Dassault seem to think otherwise. How foolish…

Yeah , Death Star (lost in translation I was , young Jedi 😮 )

Mark my words EE , I am being honest and clairvoyant .
Sooner than some expect (it already happened) , stealth based on carefull shaping will become a small tool in the futur inventory . You can ‘t hide from different wavelength with a unique shape and this is physics . They know it and we(most of us) know it . I can give dozens of examples of radars tracking so called “stealth” objects , radars based on various radar bands and they are already up and running in most western countries .
Whatever it is based on (mostly on COTS components) , from cell phones to HOTH , from low bands to S bands , existing systems are already taking good care of “stealth” objects .

Few examples in France :
The HA-100 system :

Thales also introduced the Alerter HA-100 ‘passive radar’ sensor, using illuminators of opportunity (FM transmitters) the HA-100 has been developed for homeland security and force protection applications. Operating in totally discrete mode, the radar is capable of detecting targets at low speed and very low altitude, including stealthy flying targets at a range of 100 km. According to Thales, the radar has already been sold to several NATO countries.

http://defense-update.com/events/2007/summary/parisairshow07ad.htm

A 2 men team can set it up in 20 minutes and the all set can fit in a pick-up truck .

or this :
The RIAS system :

Looks like electrical posts along the road when it ‘s … scanning .
Do you think France is alone at developping such systems ? 😉
As I said , mark my words and wait 15-20 years .

Cheers .

I agree with you Haavarla , but I was talking about MSA radars , not PESA .
Ok ? 😎

Cheers .

did i say anything wrong?
i am still doubtful about the Rafale better radar range..

As 12f said :

there was a link from a blog about MMRCA competition stating the rafale aesa would feature 1001 modules and 180km detection range.

(I posted the link) .
Much before that , I already predicted this kind of range vs a 3 SqM target and about 260km vs an airliner size target (AWAC , JStar , Tanker) . This is not far from the range archived by the 1st AN/APG-77 (F-22 , 1990) , quoted by Jane ‘s (and others) at 193km vs a fighter size target .

As yet unconfirmed sources suggest that APG-77 has a ‘typical’ operating range of 193 km and is specified to achieve an 86 per cent probability of intercept against a 1 m2 target at its maximum detection range using a single radar paint.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Radar-and-Electronic-Warfare-Systems/AN-APG-77-United-States.html

I have a good idea on what Thalès has been working on as well as what components they used from UMS (which is in the public domain) .
The RBE2-AA is sound . Fitted on an airplane like Rafale and with other third part sensors (Awacs , Sats , you name it) it is going to be a hell of a gem to run within a combined airforce , be sure of it . 😎

Cheers .

Flying with radar OFF without AWAC support, in the midst of enemy controlled air space where he WILL have AWAC coverage,
-is the dumbest thing i heard in a long time.

Oh , really ?

So , explain to us why such “dumb thing” was the very mission of the Mirage IV , M2000 N and now Rafale with ASMP-A …

Cheers .

What would happen if the naval F-35s are crapped all together (very unlikely but …) ?

As I see things , the UK would go for the SH . British ‘s Ego and political ties with the USA forbid any Rafale buy . Period .

So , if an interim aircraft has to be used , it ‘s gonna be the SH . Sure , the British pilots can train with the MN and the Rafales to keep themselves up and running but that ‘s it .

Cheers .

I think that about sums up the landing “helps” we have, in maybe a bit more than a couple words 😉

Thank you much for that . While I ‘m not a pilot , I still do get a nice picture and I try to understand the ins and outs .

You said :

We also have ATC (auto throttle control), which in the approach/landing mode keeps the jet on-speed and makes autothrottle corrections to keep it there. Many folks use this regularly at the boat, though it requires a slightly different technique as you are really now controlling glideslope with the nose rather than the throttles (which traditionally is the way carrier approaches are flown

If I get it right , in ATC you ‘re controling AoA (nose up) while in manual , you also have to control the sink rate , right ?

Did you ever do night landings on a carrier ? If yes , is it THAT hard ? How does it look from the pilot ‘s PoV ?
Is it similar than this (Rafale) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zByPa5jN3V4

Cheers .

I have no idea what the Rafale guys do, but no, you would never be able to use ATC for refueling in the Hornet. Just like any other kind of close formation flying (which is what you are doing with the basket and/or tanker), it takes constant little throttle and stick inputs to stay in the basket, especially as the tanker is turning, etc. It isn’t hard once you get the hang of it, but it is definitely made easier when you are tanking off an aircraft that is flying at a more reasonable airspeed (better throttle response, better control finesse, less cocked up nose attitude). Bad weather/night is a whole other story of course, but that is my perspective anyway.

I thank you for your personal input based on real life experience . 🙂
It ‘s not that often that we get former pilots here …

but no, you would never be able to use ATC for refueling in the Hornet. Just like any other kind of close formation flying (which is what you are doing with the basket and/or tanker), it takes constant little throttle and stick inputs

This is not the case with the Rafale . It seems that Dassault is taking good care of the pilot ‘s workload and stress by easing basic manoevers through clever flight modes .
Btw 35 AoA , in few words what are the landing system “helps” in the Hornet ?

Cheers .