BluewingsSince we ‘re talking about AESA components , R&D , etc and since Scorpion gave us a good paper , here is one about Thalès France work and ideas :
(I had to)
http://see.conference-services.net/resources/253/1452/pdf/RADAR2009_0256.pdf
This paper is few years old but one of the main thing to note is the fact that AESA radars are no longer an issue for Thalès as the main point now is to reduce the cost .
Also , newer HBT GaAs (16mm2) with better output power (14W) are used for the RBE2-AA , giving (as I said) an actual power of 9.6kW with a 11.6kW power peek .
With the same output power but by using GaN (rated at 40-50W 5 years ago) , the RBE2-AA could indeed have a range increased by almost 80% , in the order of 280km for a 5m2 target . Just to say , that would mean that the fighter could track a F-22 @ 60km , if we believe the US numbers on RCS .
Equipped with such GaN modules , a Captor-E could beat that , maybe 10-15% better .
To the Typhoon fans , I also have this :
The Caesar’s antenna, using a liquid cooling system, comprises 1,500 Gallium-Arsenide T/R modules. Each of these active, finger-sized and 15-gram light modules provides a power output of 10 Watts
This is outright false wrt T/R modules (more like 1190-1200) but we can trust the 15 gram and the 10W . That would mean that the Typhoon with captor-E has a possible 10kW output power or even 14kW if better GaAs modules are used . Better than the actual RBE2-AA .
With GaN modules and with the same output power , around 12kW , the Captor-E could have a 300km range for a 5m2 target .
In fact , everybody will have powerfull AESA radars within 15 years (even the Chinese) . It ‘s about time to find a … Klingon system 😉
Cheers .
Bluewingsredreidy :
but the fact of the matter is it is not a mature A2G platform so there was no advantage to sending it in that early.
Spot on . Typhoon can ‘t do SEAD/DEAD yet .
Cheers .
BluewingsWell , modestly , I give a cigar to Scorpion . He found a great paper .
So , it seems that Electtronica is indeed using a very similar way than Thalès .
If I only knew that wideband Vivaldi arrays were used on the Typhoon , I would not have posted some of the stuff the way I did . But hey , I didn ‘t know !
I (and probably many others) have underestimated DASS .
Thalès has been doing extensive work with Vivaldi arrays working on X and Ks radar bands as well as Selex :
http://www.emrsdtc.com/conferences/2007/downloads/pdf/conference_papers/A007.pdf
A couple of questions : why the Typhoon doesn ‘t have a third array placed on top of the dérive (fin) since the rear sector is not covered ?
Also on page 22 , I note :
Other “non-conventional” ECM techniques, (which however may
require modified antenna elements)
Very important . To archive “non-conventional” ECM techniques , GaAs MMICs are needed just to start on a good foot but GaN MMICs have to be used to really push the technology . We know that SPECTRA is actually using GaAS tech and GaN will be used with the F4 (as well for the cheek arrays) .
What about DASS ?
I know that we are on the verge to talk about Active Cancellation but we ‘ll have to one of these days .
Interestingly , the US have also been working on wideband ECM arrays based on the same technology :
http://www.astron.nl/other/documents/conf/technology/tech10w.pdf
Suddently , I “love” the Typhoon even more ! 🙂
Interesting times to come , I am going to try to find some more infos . Finger crossed …
Cheers .
BluewingsThanks for the link Scorpion , very good find . 😎
I saved it .
back in a moment …
Cheers .
Bluewingsredreidy :
also with regards to tanks i have a rifled barrel that begs to differ with the leopard 2
lol ! I agree wrt the 2A4 (or the Abrams) . But the Leclerc L52 barrel and Leo 2A5 L55 barrel beg to differ … 😉
Shame it is an aviation forum …
Scorpion :
PIRATE from what is known provides many more information than the IRST of the OSF and is in fact capable to perform most of the functions the entire OSF suite performs. It won’t do everything as good (ranging & ID for example) and it can’t do everything at the same time, but it’s at least fully fused and looks like being a much more capable IRST than the current on of the Rafale.
This is debatable . As you say PIRATE is an excellent piece of kit .
The much vaunted Rafale F3-04T will have no IRST at all for some time to come !
Yep and this is very unfortunate . We ‘ll have to carry on using Micas as short range IRSTs , it works but the range is nowhere near PIRATE .
Your claims about RBE2’s frequency agility
Any AESA radar will claim this kind of agility . This is not something unique to the RBE2-AA . A quick google search will give you similar numbers .
Just to please you , I give you one about the captor AESA 😉 :
Thanks to electronic scanning the Caesar can instantaneously scan the entire field-of-view within some milliseconds
the number of simultaneous channels the DASS/SPECTRA can listen too
This is highly classified (and for some years to come) but from what I could gather all these years , SPECTRA is probably capable to manage nearly twice as many channels than DASS , thanks to Bragg Cells and quicker filtering . As I said many times , it also helps in “building” the electromagnetic response (jamming) .
the NCTR capability of the Captor is much more advanced than this, it’s not a simple JEM technique, but shape recognition as a whole. That means that even targets with hidden compressor stages can be identified!
I know . We ‘ll have that with the -AA .
If you would “love” the Typhoon you wouldn’t bash it on every possible occasion just to promote your real love, the Rafale, as the best thing invented since sliced bread!
Oh , C ‘Mon ! The fact is that I am having a hard time to find a mission where the Typhoon could perform better than the Rafale , bare a “Scramble” to intercept a fast and high flying target . The M2000 was very good at it , the Rafale is even better but the Typhoon is better than both .
Cheers .
Bluewingsuss novice :
Hmm, I like Bluewings – much like the teenage champion he talks about, plenty of spirit.
I don ‘t know if you ‘re serious but if you are , I am blushing 😮 Thank you .
Bloodshot , I knew of the ALQ-703 but I didn ‘t know that it was based on some work done from the DASS . I am looking into it right now but I can ‘t find some papers showing the link in between the 2 hardwares , can you help , thank you . 🙂
Anyway , this is the very first time that I read something saying that DASS is indeed an active phased array ! 😎
I think that some of us should try to dig into it , then we could ~maybe~ get some more infos . I am actually astonished …
The picture provided indeed show an AESA array , very similar to the one used on the Rafale .
If it ‘s the case , why in hell we didn ‘t hear about it earlier on ? Why only ONE paper (and with a picture) ?
In fact , if the wingtip pods are AESA based , one can be sure that the system is using the X-Eye Cross-Eye system from Electtronica or is planned to in the futur .
Interesting …
Cheers .
BluewingsSorry in advance for the off topic post 😮
I would like to apologize to TMor . I am truely sorry TMor but I believe that you understood what I said about your “genitals” .
You see Gentlemen , within the context the word “testicle(s) is used as “guts” or “balls” . In France , someone with smalll “testicles” is someone who is right but who doesn ‘t want to say so and prefer to “let go” rather than stand his/her ground and make the point , or fight . In english , I believe that we say “chicken play” .
What I said had nothing to do with the actual size of the genitals of our friend TMor .
Sorry all . 😮
Cheers .
Bluewingsredreidy , I am glad that you are back with a good spirit , no kidding . 🙂
Let ‘s starts frome there :
you could say i am trolling a troll in all honest i don’t think you chat rubbish i actually read what you post as you seem to know your stuff with regards to the Rafale (much more that will ever understand or wish to) and I would say I have learnt things from your post.
Thanks , I knew that I was of some use 🙂
What i don’t understand is your apparent vendetta against the typhoon on numerous threads; it’s as if you go out of your way to discredit it??
Far from me to actually discredit the Typhoon . I tell you a secret but don ‘t spread it : I love the Typhoon 🙂
It is like a wild “Mustang horse” , it has the energy of a sportive teenager , raw power , aggressivity , long teeth but a bit all over the place wrt maturity and common sense . It also get tired quickly (range) like a teenager . In fact , it is a champion badly born .
You cannot seriously think that that French engineering is that far ahead of the other European nations to make your claims warranted.
That far ahead ?! I ‘ve never said so . Yes we are ahead in some electromagnetic field and optical research , in aerodynamics , in stealth , in manufacturing high tech gizmos , in electrical components , in fiber optics , in holography and most importantly in software writing . Just look at the 3D game and movie markets and industry (public domain) . We have a very special relationship with chips 😎
If it is it means either the French are the smartest nation on earth or the English and Germans are idiots.
Again , like many other posters , you put words in my mouth . 😡
No one is the smartest , some are working hard in some fields while others are working hard on other fields . As an example , German cars are the best cars in the World and the technology behind it is second to none . The people behind is also the best in the World . Wrt Tanks , the Germans are also the best . British COMS and infrastructures are probably the best in the World as well as the homeland defense . Etc …
I would suggest that all three nations having a rich history in aviation and produced many fine aircraft (Germany no so much in the post war years) would be roughly equal in engineering quality.
I agree about the past (Spit , Me 262 , etc) but not about present days . Since the 60s , Dassault took the lead in Europe and never lost it . To this very day , no one in Europe has Dassault ‘s expertize in manufacturing civilian or military aircraft , and far from it I should say and that ‘s an history fact .
I am not affraid to say that regarding delta aircraft , no one in the World can compete and certainly not the USA . They never understood the concept and their various studies on delta have been **** poor job or the results have been underestimated .
My scenario is that both aircraft were built around the same time on around the same budgets by very clever people on both sides, the logical conclusion from this reasoning is that the aircraft will be very closely matched.
Nice and wishfull thinking but wrong . Present time is showing who ‘s the best at doing everything needed and this is not about to change anytime soon .
Both having strengths and weaknesses.
Give me a Rafale ‘s weakness , just try Sir , I am being honest here .
You know , for the sake of winning the argument , many will try dirty tricks like in the old time when Rafale needed a M2000 to do some of the AtoG job (and they were right) , or when they read that the OSF was made of obsolete components , or when they read (wrongly) that the Pesa RBE2 was “blind” , or when they read (wrongly again) that the Rafale was underpowered , etc …
I know no weakness on Rafale even if I know where and how it could be better , like many other frenchman or people in the know . I already talked about it but it went unnoticed by most (héhé :D)
This view is reflected in the MMRCA, both aircraft having passed the technical evaluations.
Well , here I am going to get some stick again but never mind . 😎
India don ‘t have all the cards in Her hand .
It was obvious to many that only the Typhoon and the Rafale would make the cut . Nothing magic here as the US Teens are nowhere near the capability India wants around 2015 .
The problem is as folllow : India is betting on the Typhoon to get what She needs while the Rafale is already a mirror of what India needs .
If they did get ALL the true data on both aircraft , the Rafale is ahead on technicals , no doubt (like In Singapore , Korea , Swiss , Netherland (F-35 not withstanding) .
In fact , India is trying to squeeze the Typhoon lemon to get the very best deal wrt money and ToT . To do so , they have to bet on the futur as they are not really ready to invest money into the program .
They don ‘t have to with the Rafale . Everything is working or planned and founded . Even the AESA cheek arrays are on the go and that has nothing to do with India .
If India is getting the Typhoon , I eat vegetarian ! 😀
Cheers .
BluewingsTR1 :
lol @ “do not compare Rafale and Typhoon”.
lol ! Would you compare a SU-35 with a SU-27 ? 😀
Cheers .
BluewingsLmRaptor , thanks .
This video clearly shows the advantage of AESA wrt detection time but , the time to ID and crunch numbers includes radar returns . This is why it takes few seconds to get the real picture .
Here , I am talking to PeterG 😉
Cheers .
BluewingsPeterG , this is not about sending one pulse at whatever range , 100km or more or less and wait for the return before to send another pulse . Of course not ! It doesn ‘t work this way . :rolleyes:
While your maths are correct , it is not what I was refering to .
What I said is the RBE2-AA takes approximatly 100 nanoseconds to cover the entire field of view with thousands of beams . Every good AESA radar is doing it , nothing magic .
Keep in mind that I was comparing the mechanical Captor with a good AESA radar .
Now , the Captor is indeed a powerfull MSA radar with a better range than the RDY or even RDY-2 , both MSA radars . It also have a better range than the PESA RBE2 by a fair margin . You said :
Captor has quoted ranges of 370 km vs transport a/c (Boeing 747) and 185 km for fighters (…) quoted tracking range is 160 km vs a 5m2 target .
This is better than the PESA RBE2 and not one frenchman ~including myself~ said otherwise .
It can track something like 20-30+ targets and uses interleaved RWS, TWS and VS
Like many other good radars , them being MSA , PESA or AESA . Some do better than that , others not .
It can TWS in its entire 120° arc due to high mechanical speed.
I would hope so .
ECCM is high – it has dedicated ECCM data processing..
Same answer than above .
I am certainly not looking down on the Captor as it is most probably the best MSA radar ever made . 🙂
Cheers .
BluewingsTU-160 ? 😮 😀
Cheers .
Bluewingsbjnewf :
One is the original article and the other is a gross violation and outright theft of intellectual property rights.
So right .
quadbike :
This! makes all other differences irrelevant.
lol ! Yes but try to tell that to the Chinese drivers 😀
Btw I have a question : in BVR , is the US F-15 capable to win versus a J-11B ?
Cheers .
BluewingsTMor :
Are you claiming that other aircraft are capable since decades of :
hitting up to 6 time sensitive targets 50km away ?
ensuring their own self defence meanwhile ?
making his way through and evading dense air defense with no jammer/wild weasel support ?
demonstrating all the roles with only one version ?There is still a lot of misunderstanding about what Rafale is actually doing over Libya…
Be careful Thomas , you ‘re talking like me …
Cheers .
BluewingsV1nce :
be a little more accostable and neutral.
Well V1nce , we don ‘t know each other well but I promise you that I am very much “accostable” , my friends are my witnesses 🙂
I know that I am more often than not pretty abrupt but I have to on this kind of website because many are fanboys without any meaningfull knowledge while I am a fanboy with a decent knowledge , I am not being cocky .
Neutral ?
So , when I post facts and/or personal opinion , I am not neutral ? I can ‘t see the relevance of your point V1nce . I never lie , I am sometimes wrong and I learn along the way but I am always honest and again , more often than not , I know what I am talking about because most of the time I work with links and pdfs in front of me and I also have my own experience .
Since you follow the ongoing threads , I am sure that you have noticed that I always say when I am wrong and I usualy thank the poster .
V1nce , how do you want me to react when a poster write silly things like :
redreidy :
insted dassault wanted to make a supped up tornado. but only just managed to make it better than the original…
??? 😮
That bloke only deserves dedain or a kick in the butt , because he is obviously trolling . How can someone in his right mind compare the Rafale to the Tornado ? :eek::confused:
But then , I must be the troll …
Cheers .
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