BluewingsOh , and by the way , I am not saying that the Rafale is a bomber .
Just wanted to make sure 😎
It is an omnirole fighter .
Cheers .
BluewingsFedeykin :
The problems that Britain are facing are nothing to do with the quality of the aircraft or training!
I agree with you ! Believe me , I do not blame the pilots or the aircraft .
You ‘re having budget cuts and it shows on the operational level , that ‘s all .
nocutstoRAF :
BTW can anyone point me to concrete confirmation that SPECTRA includes active cancellation technology .
Personaly , I can ‘t . Nothing “official” on the Web .
If there is nothing concrete then I am inclined to believe that SPECTRA is likely to be on par to DASS or any other advanced self-defence system
Technologicaly speaking ,SPECTRA is ahead of DASS (Praetorian in fact) . I already talked and posted stuff on the matter on this forum but I don ‘t remember where . (:o)
I could redo the job but it would take me some time .
nocutstoRAF , you also said :
(and personally I would expect Israeli and US systems to be slightly ahead of European systems here)
and :
I was working on the general rule of thumb that US avionics tends to be slightly ahead of the European market and they usually share this technology with Israel (who obviously need to make sure their defence aids/ECM are top notch).
You must understand (I wish you do) that the US thinking wrt to ECM has been vastly different ~and still is~ than the Dassault and Thalès thinking .
They mostly design hardwares designed to “blanket” from stand off range and the self-protection systems are mostly based on feeding the other with false data (duplication and doppler twist) . (In this regard , it has to be noted that the M2000 ‘s ICMS MKII is highly regarded and known as one of the best ECM suite of the 4th generation .)
AFAIK , no US ECM suite has been designed with what the French had in mind . The idea behind SPECTRA forced us to to go where we needed to go . Btw , we had no other choice as the aircraft was not VLO .
So , we poured money and brain power to explore some known theories and we pushed the technology forward .
If a proof was needed , why do you think the Rafale was the very first fighter with an active phase array jamming suite , carefuly placed on the aircraft and since 1996 , 15 years ago ?
Today , it is still the only aircraft with AESA jammers covering a 360deg bubble , yep .
On the ELINT capability , we all have read about SPECTRA “sniffing” at every occasions and this is mostly where the system is so far highly regarded by everyone , including the USA . Have we ever read similar things about DASS (Praetorian) ? Well … (silence in the room)
A fine example of SPECTRA ‘s job is what we read a couple of days ago :
A preliminary phase of Operation Odyssey Dawn was conducted by the French Air Force, which launched a ‘pre-strike’ at 17:45 on Saturday March 19, 2011 against Libyan military vehicles near in the Benghazi. This attack may have served as a ‘stimulation’ action bringing Libyan radars online, thus identifying them for the follow-on attack by the cruise missiles.
It is clear that SPECTRA recorded and transmited the exact positions of the Libyan radars , while guiding the aircraft through them and apparently jamming some of them to make them “useless” , as printed in one article .
The Rafale ‘s electronics are born from the idea to fly unseen deep into Russia and come back alive after firing ASMP nuclear missiles .
What a *********g goal if you ask me 😎
So (this is important) , since VLO needs a rather big aircraft for internal stores and fuel and since VLO is only good at medium to high altitude and since going deep into Russia at these altitudes is suicidal , the idea behind Rafale is suddently looking bright , isn ‘t it ? 😎
OTOH , Typhoon ‘s main task and from the very begining was to provide air dominance , whatever people think .
Stealth and discretion were not such deciding factors , more like aerodynamics at high speed and high altitude , better than average dogfighting capabilities , raw engine power to keep the energy high , good internal fuel due to delta wings , etc … Basicaly , a M2000-5 killer (!) .
It sounds funny but it is what the Typhoon is . With time , it will turn into a very good bomber ~like the M2000 did~ but will never reach the Rafale .
Cheers .
BluewingsEE :
But for an un-educated guess, around half-hour from Southern Italy to the coast of Libya, around two hours on CAP/CAS round the outskirts of the main cities then another half-hour to get back to base. So, probably around three hours at least for each take off, doing its job then getting back to base
Ok , thanks .
That seems a lot to me , too much actually without A/A refueling .
The RAF wouldn ‘t take such risk as everybody flying over Libya needs a safe fuel limit to escape in case of problem (around 1200-1500 liters) .
So , who ‘s refueling the Typhoons , or do they stay over Libya shorter than we think ?
Do we have anything on this ?
Cheers .
BluewingsRedreidy , indeed I give some credits to the people behind the Eurofighter .
At the very least , they made some big progress …
Cheers .
BluewingsAnything UNDER the full military power is without reheat .
Why do we keep talking about this ?
Is someone thinking that a loaded Rafale can fly forever with afterburners on ?
Cheers .
Bluewings@ Grey Area ,
allow me a short answer to LMRaptor because I think it is relevant with the thread title , thank you .
Raptor , you said :
Id venture as far to say that aligning flight performance and signature management are some of the relatively easy requirements to manage without technical compromise and too much cost.
This is , well , outright wrong . Sorry to say 😮
If it was so easy to build and without too much cost , the F-22 would not be the only true dominance fighter . Europe knew how to design a true VLO fighter (on paper) but lacked the money to do so . The Europeans had to do some compromise to fulfill their needs .
In fact , building a VLO aircraft with outstanding flight performances is extremely difficult even with big money . Myself , I was surprised to see the F-22 scoring against the Rafale in dogfight . Sure the F-22 had to burn a huge amount of fuel to keep up but it shows that its flight performances are outstanding .
How much cost the F-22 ?
Id say that the sensor and networking requirements are much harder to align with signature reductions at reasonable costs.
There , I agree . One European Nation did put more brain power and money than some others in this regard .
I think that when Europe saw what could be done wrt stealth (watching the USA) , Europeans quickly understood that they could not compete wrt a true VLO design and some did choose a different path , based on Electronic low observability .
The lack of money forced us to follow a different and cheaper path but we gained a lot 🙂
Cheers .
Bluewings(@ Gray Area ,
Rgr that loud and clear , no worries Sir .)
Cheers .
BluewingsI welcome the British Pilots and Typhoons for what they do over Libya , really 🙂
They try hard to use the aircraft/pilots to their actual best and the result is sound . They do the job .
If it is not too much to ask , could someone give us a quick “brief” on the latest Typhoon ‘s missions like where they take off , refuel and land ? How much time they stay in the air , etc … Thanks .
Cheers .
BluewingsErakis :
I guess it is 50% of full power with reheat
This is impossible and you should know it :p
Cheers .
BluewingsTMor :
I’ve seen nothing new about a replacement by Thales…
There are quite few things you don ‘t know about Thomas and btw , when I say something you have no clues about , keep you tongue behind your teeth , thank you .
I didn ‘t like the :
Then stop answering him.
Cheers .
BluewingsOn the Rafale news X topic , Colibri posted this :
I would like to show the link in between what it is said and what I said few days ago on a different thread :
“”Think about new sensor integration then sensor fusion integration and then , the learning curve with the new sensors and what new techniques could be employed to fully use the aircraft .
No joke here .
It took the AdlA and the MN 3 years to built the whole picture in AtoA provided by the Pesa RBE2 compared to the RDY . They are still finding new ways TODAY to use the radar , 9 years later . Same with Spectra , which has been updated 4 times since 1999 . At each step , it takes a couple of years to really understand what can be done operationaly .“”
Then , wrt to the Typhoon , I added :
“”I am saying that the time in between the integration and the full use of the radars will take years , like for everybody else .
The primary AtoA software (should we call it F1 ?) is going to be changed at least twice in the first 2 years , just to fit the planning and the pilots ‘s recommandations . The AtoG software will also be updated few times , just for calibration purposes and will also be updated at every new weapon integration . This is how it works .“”
There , I mean that when the AESA Captor will be operational and fielded , it is going to take few years for the Typhoon users to fully exploit the radar and this is normal . Some people said that this is ridiculous , well sorry , but it isn ‘t .
The article posted by Colibri is saying the same :
The idea that a single aircraft can be re-tasked in flight from reconnaissance to strike to interception during the same sortie is truly revolutionary, and we’re just now beginning to understand all that this implies,” says one officer
In fact , more we use and do with the aircraft , more we discover new ways to use it . This is exactly what I meant .
The Typhoon is going to follow the same path but 5 years late , at least .
Sure , it is not a pleasant thing to hear when you ‘re a Typhoon fan but it is the truth .
We could also speak about the following as well :
Rafale’s capabilities are changing the way the French air force operates. Previously, distinct pilot “communities” developed around each of the main missions flown – air defense, ground attack, strike, etc. – and lived more or less independently of each other. With the Rafale, however, this phenomenon is fading away since any unit, any aircraft and any pilot fly air-defense, strike or ground attack missions, as required. Specialization will disappear, several officers said, to be replaced by fewer but far more flexible aircraft and pilots.
This flexibility also translates into a major advantage for operational management, because any available Rafale can be tasked for any mission, without needing, as in the past, for a given aircraft-weapon combination to be available.
Pilot training in France is more advanced on Rafale than Typhoon pilot training for the same reasons , Rafale Pilots are also becoming “omnirole” , thanks to the aircraft .
The 1/7 St. Dizier Squadron ‘s main job is AtoG . The first AtoG Typhoon Squadron is no-where to be seen .
Then , when one knows the UK “problem” with Typhoon pilot training and availability (and budget cuts) …
It is also very rare to hear some operational stuff about Spectra and its unknown and various war modes . It has been said that Libya ‘s ground radars were found to be useless against the aircraft ‘s ECMs , which means powerless (the same has been already demonstrated many times at RedFlag , Tiger Meet , Garuda , etc …) .
Sometimes , it look likes to me that saying here on Key that the Rafale is a more advanced aircraft that the Typhoon is a sin . An unforgivable sin .
If it ‘s the case , let me say , and in an abrupt manner , that I am right and who says otherwise is wrong .
Let ‘s be honest Gentlemen , in which area the actual Typhoon can rival the actual Rafale ?
Some will say that it can fly a bit faster at high altitude and its AtoA missiles have better legs , so what ?
Nothing .
Can we think that the Typhoon will close the gap in the incoming years (2012-2018) ?
Personaly , I don ‘t think so and I ‘m not affraid to be right . 😎
Cheers .
BluewingsFedaykin :
Well the Indian airforce disagree with you Bluewings!
No they don ‘t , that I am sure of . They simply think that the Typhoon can fullfil its expectations . I think the same .
Typhoon met the requirements to get through to the final part of the contest so clearly they feel the Typhoon development schedule can fit into their plans.
Yes , that ‘s exactly what I ‘m saying . 🙂
The AESA technology planned for Typhoon is already mature and Selex has plenty of experience with it, actually more so then many other European manufacturers!
I agree with everything but the last sentence , Thalès knows better . But this is not the point I am trying to make .
Yes the Captor-E will be a good radar and its physical integration on the Typhoon shouldn ‘t give any sweat . I never said otherwise Fedaykin .
I am saying that the time in between the integration and the full use of the radars will take years , like for everybody else .
The primary AtoA software (should we call it F1 ?) is going to be changed at least twice in the first 2 years , just to fit the planning and the pilots ‘s recommandations . The AtoG software will also be updated few times , just for calibration purposes and will also be updated at every new weapon integration . This is how it works .
I say again , what the Rafale do right now is at least 5 years ahead of what the Typhoon can do WITHOUT Aesa .
Wrt AtoA , the Pesa RBE2 seems to have an edge over the actual Captor , at least regarding beam forming and discretion , which was expected . Add the lower RCS and Spectra at ease to read Captor and you have a winner in BVR . Nothing magic .
I always said that the Rafale was a better aircraft than the Typhoon and I am not going to change my mind anytime soon because I would be wrong .
But I see the Typhoon as the second best (in the futur) .
Wilde :
Wow, the stuff you’re making up is getting more delusional with every post you make.
Ok . Where would you try to fit AESA conformal arrays on the actual Typhoon ?
… :confused:
Cheers .
BluewingsSintra :
Thats ridiculous
Certainly not Sintra .
Think about new sensor integration then sensor fusion integration and then , the learning curve with the new sensors and what new techniques could be employed to fully use the aircraft .
No joike here .
It took the AdlA and the MN 3 years to built the whole picture in AtoA provided by the Pesa RBE2 compared to the RDY . They are still finding new ways TODAY to use the radar , 9 years later . Same with Spectra , which has been updated 4 times since 1999 . At each step , it takes a couple of years to really understand what can be done operationaly .
As an example , it would take the Typhoon at least 3 years to integrate something like the A2SM , including the fusion with the radar , the FCS and the most wanted interaction with Praetorian .
On the other hand , it is NOT gonna take long for the Brimstone integration on the Rafale because the onboard sensor’ s fusion is already there . The French will only learn how to use the weapon , which can also take 2 to 3 years in itself .
You ‘ll see that when the Typhoon will get its AESA radar , it ‘s gonna take 3 to 5 years to fully operate the stuff , trust me .
So , when I say that the Typhoon is at least 5 years behind the Rafale , you understand that I am NOT only talking about technology but about overall capabilities .
The 2018 Rafale will still be superior to the 2018 Typhoon . In fact , after 2018 , I see the Rafale getting an even bigger lead on the Eurofighter .
Just the fact that an AESA conformal array on the Typhoon is near to impossible unless to review some parts of the airframe like the nose , and to add larger LRXs which lead to a new re-design of the wings .
Same with a possible Aesa jamming array “a la Rafale” , no room enough .
Then , there is still the RCS difference …
Cheers .
BluewingsVery nice video 🙂
I am always admirative when they refuel …
Cheers .
BluewingsWhat is puzzling me is that we keep getting “rumors” about the 2 aircraft (Typhoon-Rafale) having performed more or less equally (?) during the technical eval …
My question is what could make the Indians think that the Typhoon is as good as the Rafale for the foreseable futur ?? :confused:
Presently , the Rafale is fully “omnirole” with an alreary founded futur way beyond the RBE2-AA capability while the Typhoon is at least 5 years behind in overall capabilities in every Ops you can think of , including the AtoA warfare .
So , why India is apparently thinking that the Typhoon is a potential buy ? :confused:
If we leave the technical evaluation aside , I would happily bet my hat that the Typhoon will win the contract .
Why ?
India is moving ahead with the M2000s upgrade and since they don ‘t want to put anymore all their eggs in the same basket , they might decide to go with the Eurofighter .
Which in my eyes is a nonsense . 😎
Cheers .
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