bloodshot :

I wonder how many Viper pilots would agree with that statement ?
Not to many I’m guessing !

Yes , I exaggerated , I admit 😮
I enjoyed your post and I like your tone . 🙂

The APG-77(V)2 is said to have some degree of in-band jamming capability which could be useful against x-band missile seekers. Although its also been stated that the current generation of MMIC modules which it shares with the APG-80 and APG-81 are limited by the duration that they can be used in this manner before damage.

Exactly .
This is what I was talking about earlier on and I believe that some US fanboys should think twice about it :
The F-22 DOESN’T have any ECMs .
For a 5th gen aircraft , it ‘s a big miss . When you add no IRST , no LRF , no LWR , no TV Cam … 😮

They can bash our nice 4.5 gen aircraft(s) but they should think twice first . :diablo:

Cheers .

uss novice , we can provide even more materials but YOU have to do your homework TOO 😉

But this does not suggest that the Rafale can fire a mica at bvr using the info from the OSF – unless of course the LRF is used

Correct .

The OSF allows detection/tracking of heat sigs and forms a great image of targets well beyond VR, but is the track good enough for a firing solution. Range AND bearing?

The OSF without the LRF can ‘t do ranging .

OR does it use the RBE or LRF to be able to fire a BVR missile?

It can use both , radar at long range , radar and LRF at 35-40km .

This does not truly make the Rafale any different from its peers – almost any modern a/c with IRST/TV can do the same including the PIRATE and OLS-30.

IRST/TV is not good enough , you don ‘t get any ranging which is something you need BVR to get a good pk (Probability of Kill) . A LRF is needed .

Now , the Rafale is not the only fighter to have a good IRST and a good LRF but it is the only one to have a long range TV Cam . In itself , it is a huge advantage regarding situational awareness especially when you know how hard the RoE (Rules Of Engagement) actually are .
Nowadays , you need to know who you are firing at and being able to visually look at your target at up to 50km is giving you the opportunity AND the “right” to fire earlier than anybody else .

As an example , a SU-35 , or SH , a Typhoon , a F-22 , etc will check the IFF (when it works) or ask to an AWAC for infos on the “possible target” when a Rafale will look at the target and … fire .
This is what happened 2 years ago during the European “Tiger Meet” joint exercise where the Rafales were able to fire first in most situations , including against “enemy” ships .

Cheers .

uss novice :

Any sources on this would be appreciated.

Thanks to TMor ‘s work on putting everything together in a nice and friendly way , here are your answers :

The OSF is used for mainly for air-to-air (this is why it is above the nose), but also air-to-ground and air-to-sea detection. It is made of :

* an infrared sensor (IRST), dual band (3-5µm and 8-12µm) so as to detect even stealth targets by day and night, at more than 100km, with an angular multi-target tracking capability. Of course, it is not prone to EM jamming, and does not suffer from maneuvers like “beam” ;
* a TV camera associated with a laser range-finder. The camera allows the pilot(s) to : identify a target at long range (up to 50km depending on the size), check its weapons (the pilot will then tell Spectra about it), assess battle damage, count the aircraft in a close formation, all of this at long range, well before visual range. The camera automatically points the most threatening target. The laser range-finder also allows for a stealthy firing solution provided the target has no laser detector (a lot of fighter aren’t equipped yet). But its range is limited to 30 to 40 km, depends on the LCS (Laser Cross Section : is the target big ?) and can’t cope with fogs and clouds.

The OSF can also work as a FLIR, but its position above the nose compromises it.

All these data come from Dassault various publications like the FoxThree “journal de bord” :
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/defense/rafale/publications.html

Also check the No14 (under “Nowhere to hide , passive detection”) :
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/Defence/Rafale/Fox_Three_N_14_UK2.pdf

Cheers .

uss novice :

So, no ranging just based on Spectra/OSF – TV ? ………………. that it could fire Mica IIR based purely on the emitter location system via the spectra.

Sir , you said “without radio emission” , so SPECTRA can ‘t be used in this case .
If there are some emission like radar scan , SPECTRA can indeed targets the foe BVR .
So :
-a) no radio emission : BVR firing with IR Micas + LRF (35km)
-b) radio emission : BVR firing at long range with SPECTRA

Do I make sense ?

Cheers .

Well Taygibay, there is nothing to be confused about 😉

The Mica ‘s IR seekers don ‘t need “triangulation” , when they see something , they go after it .
Regarding the acquisition range , it is classified but we know that the Magic II was capable to track a target at around 12-15km .
Since the Mica ‘s IR seeker is more advanced and is said to be used as IRSTs by the pilots , we can guess that its acquisition range is probably around 20km .

But as I pointed out a while back to those guys, it does not work quite as well once those misiles have been fired

???:confused: An IR Mica on its rail or in flight has the same detection range . Why it would be different since the seeker has its own power unit ?

Cheers .

The Mig 1.44 has been ditched long ago …

Then , the plasma technology is nowhere to be ready .

Cheers .

uss novice :

b) Can the Rafale fire missiles in BVR without any radio emissions? I know that it can do so WVR with the use of a LRF, and perhaps a Gripen like triangulation is possible via multiple Rafales. However, can it do this singlehandedly with the combination of sensors that it has (OSF/Spectra) and the Mica IIR?

Big question .
Can the OSF do ranging ? Personally , I don ‘t think so . If there is no radio emission coming from the foe , SPECTRA is useless .
So , at what distance the Mica ‘s IR seekers can track a target in LOBL ? The range is classified .
At what distance the LRF can be used : 35km in good condition which is BVR .
So yes , the Rafale (when alone) can fire BVR and btw , a target at 35km or less is within Mica ‘s NEZ (No Escape Zone) .

Cheers .